____twoism

Rodheh wrote:In making a Gmail account for Simulate Televangelist, I'd noticed that Google has a gender option for "other" alongside male and female. Way to go, Google. Breaking that gender binary for its users before a lot of other big internet corporations. Facebook has just now done this. Took them long enough.

Yes! I noticed that too. It's awesome I would've also accepted "N/A" or "Whatever".

how did i not notice this thread in the year i've been here holy shit this is just so important
i feel the exact same way as turquoise in the op
i'm a boy and a girl at the same damn time
i just wish i didn't look so much like a boy with this stupid body hair but i'm working on that!

circleofthesun wrote:how did i not notice this thread in the year i've been here holy shit this is just so important
i feel the exact same way as turquoise in the op
i'm a boy and a girl at the same damn time
i just wish i didn't look so much like a boy with this stupid body hair but i'm working on that!

Confusing innit?

I'd love to hear if you're making some progress on feeling more comfy in your skin, circleofthesun.

bluh
*i'm a girl
*i nair my legs and arms now
*i want more clothes
*my ex is a real jerk

Hello everyone, I'd like to re-introduce myself.

I'm Kyla

31, though I really look like i'm 12
MTF, Non-binary ( kinda dig the androgynous lesbian look)
She pronouns etc though.
About a year into transition 14-15 months HRT
Huge synth and music production nerd / visual effects artist.
Also kinda dyslexic ...
http://kylatron.tumblr.com

I used to have another account on here for years which is now defunct under a male name. Anyways I'm so glad that not only this thread exists but it exists on Twoism. I'll be honest I don't get along well with many in the MTF camp of the trans community though I have always been blown away by how many people on here are on the same wave length as me. Now that I'm finally starting to shed my old skin i'd really love to put my best foot forward and start to be more active in a community that I really think can not only get me, but accept me. Especially that weird band I like ohhh what's it called again .... Oh that's right. Boards Of Canada , not like they are my religion or anything

Trans ? Queer ? or anything ? I'd love to chat

Cool, didn't expect someone like you ever signing up, though it makes perfect sense. Welcome back!



on topic:
I'm still a bearded lesbian with a dick, if anyone cares.

Very interesting documentary from Louis Theroux on gender discourse in children. Check it out:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... ender-kids

I've also been reading a lot of Judith Butler recently, she is what some might call a "queer-theorist". Initially her work was in the post structuralist tradition, but it eventually became something completely ground breaking and unique. Her writing is difficult, but fantastic.. it completely challenges your conception of gender binaries and how gender prefigures our ideas, much in same way feminist theory challenged the patriarchal view of the world. I fully recommend reading her, if you have an interest in gender discourse.

Cupz wrote:Cool, didn't expect someone like you ever signing up, though it makes perfect sense. Welcome back!



on topic:
I'm still a bearded lesbian with a dick, if anyone cares.

Awww haha I always have time for bearded lesbians with penises !

You didn't expect someone who was trans/queer signing up ? or that someone who was the above would be a BOC fan and furthermore think Twoism is the bees knees ?

Kyla wrote:

Cupz wrote:Cool, didn't expect someone like you ever signing up, though it makes perfect sense. Welcome back!



on topic:
I'm still a bearded lesbian with a dick, if anyone cares.

Awww haha I always have time for bearded lesbians with penises !

You didn't expect someone who was trans/queer signing up ? or that someone who was the above would be a BOC fan and furthermore think Twoism is the bees knees ?

i'm RIGHT HERE YOU GUYS SHEESH

turquoise70 wrote: i'm RIGHT HERE YOU GUYS SHEESH

Welcome back

Hmmm.

I have a tough time wrapping my head around transexuality/transgenderism.

Not in that I don't understand the concept, I do (partially). Nor am I against it.

But I have a need to fit these kinds of things into my conception of how human society works or should work, as well as understand broadly what they mean for our species.

I am bisexual (yes I know it is entirely different!) and am familiar with being something poorly understood by a majority of people, please don't accuse me of bigotry, there is none to be found here. Ignorance is maybe more apt a term.

Could anyone enlighten me on what they think is the reason they are trans, if there is one? Not in a spiritual sense, just in terms of their life and development. I do understand it is not a choice. Anyone have any thoughts on what they think transexuality says about our species?

Also, does anyone find that by identifying as transgender, they may inadvertently be taking on cultural roles, habits and thought patterns typically associated with the sex they weren't born as? This particularly is something I need to be illuminated, because the nature of this process could say quite a lot about what it is to BE transexual/transgender. I mean, is it at all possible that the concept is based entirely on a response to cultural norms? And that in reality if it weren't for our culture divvying up roles, habits etc that there would be no distinction at all apart from anatomy? Again forgive me if this sounds bigoted, I am really just trying to understand and not make too many assumptions.

Interested to see people's opinions.

Answering the second part, about society norms because its a bee in my bonnet.

Be careful of mixing up 'gender' and 'gender role', which might seem like a fine line but its an important one that people critical of trans issues deliberately blur.

Gender role being the 'how you act / what you do' thing which is largely cultural. Which feminism correctly identifies as ridiculous and attempts to demolish - theres no reason why anyone of any gender should conform to a gender role.

Gender on the other hand exists seperately to that and informs how you feel about your own body. Its the face you expect to see in the mirror, the concept of self and how it relates to your physical sex. In trans people it manifests in various ways but boiling down to (and Im simplifying) "my body is wrong". It is the anatomy... and thats why the treatment involves anatomy.

This misunderstanding hasnt been helped by bad media portrayal, and even the medical community set up to help trans people - demanding that they conform to a particular gender role and requiring a backstory that encompasses it - and withholding medical treatment until they comply. This is getting slowly better but theres still a lot of it about.

Thank you for clearing that bit up for me. Yes you are right of course, and I feel a bit dense for not realising the distinction. I guess the reason why the line is blurred so much is because those gender roles exist in the first place, and they are such an integral part of the population's ideology concerning gender.

I have heard about how (despite making strides) the NHS over here delay the process for such a long time, a year or more, that many trans people end up hurting themselves or worse. I understand why the NHS does it, they don't want people making a huge mistake because they haven't had enough time to dwell on it. I suspect it is also due to staff shortages and budget cuts (thank you tories). But I guess they need to strike a balance, which they are struggling with. A friend of mine's brother has some experience in this.

No judgement there, its a distinction that a lot of people dont ever question, because... well. Why would they?

The waiting time at the main GRC in London is pushing 12 months, some others are better. Part of that is theres so much demand and its growing in fact, as education improves visibility of trans issues. But they are small teams and they'd be stretched even if they werent needlessly inefficient which they undoubtedly are. Theres guidelines to get waits down to sub 2 months to referral but that just hasnt happened and likely wont with the NHS in the state it is. (Though a lot of treatment is relatively cheap - counselling and the specific drugs. Surgery less so but not all cases go to surgery).

The need to be sure clinically is important of course but the treatment starts with counselling which helps discover if youre there for the right reasons. Making a mistake or regret is quite overplayed... the vast majority of people undergoing treatment are happier for it and most regret falls under 'should have started sooner' or 'results not meeting expectations' (for which again starting sooner helps as does good counselling).

MrMessiah wrote:Answering the second part, about society norms because its a bee in my bonnet.

Be careful of mixing up 'gender' and 'gender role', which might seem like a fine line but its an important one that people critical of trans issues deliberately blur.

Gender role being the 'how you act / what you do' thing which is largely cultural. Which feminism correctly identifies as ridiculous and attempts to demolish - theres no reason why anyone of any gender should conform to a gender role.

Gender on the other hand exists seperately to that and informs how you feel about your own body. Its the face you expect to see in the mirror, the concept of self and how it relates to your physical sex. In trans people it manifests in various ways but boiling down to (and Im simplifying) "my body is wrong". It is the anatomy... and thats why the treatment involves anatomy.

This misunderstanding hasnt been helped by bad media portrayal, and even the medical community set up to help trans people - demanding that they conform to a particular gender role and requiring a backstory that encompasses it - and withholding medical treatment until they comply. This is getting slowly better but theres still a lot of it about.

Now I have little knowledge or experience of such issues, but I'm interested in the distinction you make between gender and gender 'roles' - is it purely about anatomy for transgender people?
The reason why I ask is that as I understand it, there are observed evolutionary distinctions between genders that are behavioural (if that's the right word) as well as anatomical, that are necessarily tied in with gender 'roles' because they are formed from the obvious difference in roles in childbirth and child rearing. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by gender roles?
Surely if someone feels that they their body doesn't match the gender that they feel they are, then that actually reinforces that idea that gender is behavioural as well as anatomical? i.e the behavioural (how one feels and hence acts) doesn't match the anatomical (how one is physically)?
Looking at it from another angle, if gender roles were purely cultural and could be destroyed, then would the need to change gender then disappear?
Again, perhaps I've misinterpreted what you mean by gender and gender roles - by the way, I'm by no means trying to pick at your points or saying you're wrong.

"Looking at it from another angle, if gender roles were purely cultural and could be destroyed, then would the need to change gender then disappear?"

This was one of the possibilities I was considering. But I am not sure about any of it really.

Aerial Boundaries wrote:"Looking at it from another angle, if gender roles were purely cultural and could be destroyed, then would the need to change gender then disappear?"

This was one of the possibilities I was considering. But I am not sure about any of it really.

Aye, I supposed my thinking, more briefly, would be that gender being a spectrum rather than binary (with traditional views of male and female being either end of the spectrum) supports the idea of real and innate differences between male and female, otherwise there wouldn't be a spectrum, if you see what I mean.
To me, an intuitive response to gender inequality is rejection of the idea that one set of gender 'characteristics' (or one end of the spectrum) is superior to another and to instead recognise that they are complimentary, rather than to claim that any differences are an artificial construct. Although, again, maybe I'm missing that point and that isn't what is being claimed.
Er, I guess that wasn't 'more briefly' after all!

Yeah that's a different problem.

No amount of cultural change to eliminate gender roles is going to fix the feeling that your body is the wrong shape for who you are - that's a battleground that's being fought within. Even if you fix society's attitude to gender, trans people would still struggle.

I feel kind of weird about all this gender thing, becouse I was introduced to it by Tumblr's Feminazis in a website I used to visit a lot called funnyjunk, where they used to mock that gender thing becouse it was going to places where they would mix it with the stupid kins and blame it all society and normal people that were tolerant with them. Albeit that doesn't mean I don't like it, this thread has made me think about how gender is not only the skin you inhabit, but your mindset towards who and how you are, and Nicole's story has inspired me. It has made me think about myself and what I want, to be camfortable with things I do, but there is a part in my brain that is still reluctant to the idea that this actually is not a stupid invention to look and feel special made by those so called "feminazis". And I don't know how to get rid of it, there is still something bugging me about all of this, becouse that small part thinks that this is a bit stupid, maybe it's becouse I've never thought about it, or becouse I am comfortable with my gender being ruled by the body I was born with.