When the dollar collapse

[mechanismj]

I hope it does fuck the balance of America's shitty mindless consumption, like my personal favorite idea is having the whole economy die, and the media lull us with mtv and disney telling us its not really happening, watching hannah montana and eating frozen food which the commercials tell us is the rage, consuming ourselves to death as we lose all we have to comsume....

But the US isn't really that Bradbury-esque.

The number of quotes I've read along the lines of "Ha! The west is fucked! That'll teach us. Down with capitalism!" is ridiculous - even on "proper" news sites (no offence, but I don't come to twoism for the economics). People don't seem to realise that we're all part of this system they hate - if you've got a bank account, mortgage, pension, then you've invested in these institutions.

I don't think there's going to be any cataclysmic collapse of the $/£/Euro/whatever - things are going to be a bit tough for a while though. If you've got a mortgage on a property, hang on to it at pretty much all costs - the beauty of land/property is it's a finite resource, so there'll always be demand for it, despite sudden drops in value. There's no need to buy tinned goods and a shotgun just yet...

I still love that we're to god damned retarded to realize that we've created a monster. We seem to forget that all this shit like economics, mortgages, land value, DOES NOT MEAN A GOD DAMNED FUCKING THING. ARE WE REALLY ALL SO BLIND THAT WE'RE GOING TO LET OUR OWN RIDICULOUS CREATIONS CONTROL US?!?! WAKE UP!

If all this crap is so important to everyone, how about instead of destroying ourselves, we all wipe the slate clean and start it all over and see if we can make it better the next time around? How's that for sane?

Of course that was not directed to anyone in particular on this board (just everybody in general. Including myself)

[turquoise70]

I have never, and in all likelihood WILL never, understand you peoples' inclination towards destruction, deconstruction and violent revisionism. WHAT the FUCK happened to CHILLING THE FUCK OUT?

The world has ALWAYS been a shitty place. Atilla the Hun wasn't just some totally chilled out dude who went insane one day? The wars? The torture? It's been around forever. It's who we are. We are controllers, subjugators, rulers, organizers. We fuck up, we make mistakes when we're blind to our own sense of love and compassion. Tearing down everything we've worked towards and shooting off in some unplanned direction is NOT GONNA HELP. Christ. I'm sorry, but I'm roommates with two political radicals and this fucking shit is all I hear about. It's fucking childish. It's like the kid who kicks over his sandcastle because it wasn't perfect. LIFE SUCKS. MOVE ON.

I promise I won't bug you about this anymore, but I fucking had to get that off my chest. Screw this shit.

[powershoes]

If there weren't some basic economical guidelines for the world to follow, everyone would have...



and this whole idea of a hazy, beautiful life out in the country would no longer exist.

We all contribute to and sustain this system much more than we realize.

[turquoise70]

If there weren't some basic economical guidelines for the world to follow, everyone would have...

and this whole idea of a hazy, beautiful life out in the country would no longer exist.

We all contribute to and sustain this system much more than we realize.

Hey by the way, I played Great Lake Rising on Hidden Channel last Tues

[Aesthetics]

This new fund which should help staggering organisations from going under will cost 700 billion dollar and will eventually result in a maximal national depth of 11,3 trillion dollar. As if it wasn't enough already... It all just sound like makeshift measures to me.

Says it all:

[ZX-Pilot]

Aesthetics, life is short.

What dollar, what current accounts, what debts? hihihi! You are thinking about nonsense. I thought you are clever. I still think that. You are joking with this post, no?

[powershoes]

This new fund which should help staggering organisations from going under will cost 700 billion dollar and will eventually result in a maximal national depth of 11,3 trillion dollar. As if it wasn't enough already... It all just sound like makeshift measures to me.

Says it all:

Nice table.

That's not all! The national debt posted there is merely the public debt of the united states, which is money the federal government owes to banks.

Considering that governmental backing will increase the national debt by at least $700,000,000,000, consider this from wikipædia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_United_States:

"As of June 2008, the gross U.S. external debt was over $13 trillion, the most external debt of all countries in the world. The 2007 estimate of the United States public debt was 65% of GDP. As of September 2008, the total U.S. federal debt was approximately $9.7 trillion, about $31,700 per capita. Including unfunded Medicaid, Social Security, Medicare, and similar promised obligations, the government liabilities rises to a total of $59.1 trillion, or $516,348 per household."

So, that means that on top off all this debt that the federal government owes banks in the public debt, the United States owes $13,000,000,000,000 to other countries (external debt), and then some more from federal debt and government liabilities?! Making a grand total of:

$59,100,000,000,000 (and climbing!)

Sometimes, I wonder where all the assets for a debt this astronomical comes from, anyway. Is it any wonder that social security will be phased out before people like me are considering retirement? Programs like this and irresponsible spending by individuals and governmental institutions have driven America into almost irrecoverable debt!

That's exactly what this seems, to me, irrecoverable. People are buying and borrowing way more than they can handle, in America.

If, indeed, these debts are irrecoverable, and Lady Liberty's monetary scale is tipped over (in methods like a $700 billion minimum bailout), there will be a depression so great that there wouldn't be a choice but to borrow massively from foreign governments, to sustain American lifestyles. Either that, or start all over, through something like a national bankruptcy, or similar. Failing economy could be what bolsters a worldwide collapse of social order. How is it that every war since America's Civil War has been based on economical differences or collapsing/recovering foreign economies?

Makeshift measures, indeed!

Consumerism isn't some vague representation of America, it's a stark reality.

[powershoes]

turquoise70: check your pm's.

[Aesthetics]

Aesthetics, life is short.

What dollar, what current accounts, what debts? hihihi! You are thinking about nonsense. I thought you are clever. I still think that. You are joking with this post, no?

I'm not joking and I'm not clever.



This 700 billion plan finally got through(provisional) but only is a temporary reprieve imo. The US just officially got more deeply into debt. It's going to be a very difficult task but let's hope the new president(Obama) will wipe away all the damage that has been done in this terribly Bush era.

[polar sky]

Aesthetics, life is short.

What dollar, what current accounts, what debts? hihihi! You are thinking about nonsense. I thought you are clever. I still think that. You are joking with this post, no?

I'm not joking and I'm not clever.



This 700 billion plan finally got through(provisional) but only is a temporary reprieve imo. The US just officially got more deeply into debt. It's going to be a very difficult task but let's hope the new president(Obama) will wipe away all the damage that has been done in this terribly Bush era.

Incorrect: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/wall_street

[Aesthetics]

Yeah it's in the news all over. It's called black monday already, let's wait and see what tuesday will bring.

"Approximately $1.2 trillion in market value is gone after the House rejects the $700 billion bank bailout plan." Not exactly a piece of cake...

Didn't know they called it bailout btw.

[mechanismj]

Am I a bad person for wanting to see some rich people fall to their financial deaths?

[Aesthetics]

Am I a bad person for wanting to see some rich people fall to their financial deaths?

No, you aren't... I'm all against capitalism myself.




The land of Sigur Rós and Múm is about to go bankrupt. Holland pumped 20 billion in the branch of industry to help support healthy companies against the shakes of the credit crisis. Holland and Belgium nationalized a bank which was about to fall. This is only the big stuff which gets in the news...

One last question and then I'll drop this topic. (Also because this isn't really on topic.)

What effect does the US credit crisis have on your country?

[mechanismj]

Am I a bad person for wanting to see some rich people fall to their financial deaths?

No, you aren't... I'm all against capitalism myself.




The land of Sigur Rós and Múm is about to go bankrupt. Holland pumped 20 billion in the branch of industry to help support healthy companies against the shakes of the credit crisis. Holland and Belgium nationalized a bank which was about to fall. This is only the big stuff which gets in the news...

One last question and then I'll drop this topic. (Also because this isn't really on topic.)

What effect does the US credit crisis have on your country?

Keep in mind I haven't had cable television in over a year now... purposely... I've been avoiding the news as much as possible because I hate politics, I hate the crap that passes for legitimate news, and it's all bullshit anyway. Nobody is telling the truth ANYWHERE. So, ignorance is bliss...

From what I've been hearing, it's getting pretty bad. I'm hearing that pretty much everyone except the very wealthy may soon become a credit risk, meaning nobody is going to be able to aquire loans, make big purchases like cars or houses, etc.

This is where I start to laugh. I knew from a young age that credit is pure bullshit. I haven't once bought into it. I've NEVER seen a person, even people that make a decent wage, who have had a credit card of any kind and weren't in moderate to severe debt!

Basically, the entire nation has been floating by on money that doesn't really exist and it's finally biting them in the ass!

Here's the real clincher though. These bailouts! Money that is coming out of the pockets of honest tax payers to help keep the rich rich. I recently heard that right after AIG received their bailout, they all went on a 450 THOUSAND DOLLAR corporate retreat to a health spa in California! RIDICULOUS! Why are we letting this happen?!?! Are we really this powerless or just plain stupid?! COMPLETE INSANITY!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong and/ or you've heard differently. Again, I've been getting my news from third parties on a irregular basis.

I'm sincerely hoping to see the entire credit system totally wiped off the face of the planet. It's just plain retarded. I'd also like to see insurance companies go the way of the dinosaur too, but I can only be so lucky.

"Hey! Let's all spend money we don't actually have to buy big things we don't really need to compete with the Johnson's next door! Then, we'll pray real hard that nothing big or severe will pop up randomly in life that will prevent us from making those precious monthly payments! You know, stuff we have no control over like sickness, death, car accidents, or layoffs."

[turquoise70]

I know it's probably useless to defend capitalism here since A) no one on this particular forum will come within 5 miles of lending me credence or within 20 miles of agreeing with me and B) rants and diatribes are more common, more easy and more fun than friendly discussion, and C) whatever I say will probably be misinterpreted and received as some wild love affair with idiocy anyway

but

I think it's intellectually lazy to blame capitalism for all that's happened lately. For just one particular example, I blame poor life choices and idiotic lifestyles, which themselves aren't a necessary end result of capitalism, they're a result of a loss of a healthy perspective on a grand scale, for a historically long period of time. Honestly? I blame TV more than capitalism. But it's not just TV and Dumb Culture either. And America may be one of the biggest players in this mess, but it's not a uniquely American phenomenon. This could have started anywhere the potential was big enough, and unfortunately we fit the bill.

What about me? I have a credit card - just one, mind you, I hate the idea of credit as well, it's foolhardy. But not everyone who buys into the credit system is an idiot. You have to grant this much: that in order to acquire some things, there is no way for the average man except through using the credit system. You cannot. Buy. A house. With cash. Not unless you're so rich that none of this stuff affects you, and that doesn't pertain to anyone here.

I am in no debt. None. Zero. HOW DID THIS HAPPEN? Am I an alien? A genius? Super duper rich? No. I'm just responsible. Maybe I was dropped on my head as a child but I understand basic economics and have never spent money I don't have. I live without things I can't afford and I have a philosophy such that, if life is shitty, I look on the bright side and cheer up. Put simply, I keep my shit in order. The vast majority of people who are in debt made bad choices - and let's remember that all a bad choice is, is a good choice in the wrong context or without considering realistically the circumstances. It's a choice made in the context of what "i wish were true". I've seen people around me drive themselves into debt from a perfectly viable economic standpoint, and each time the reason has been that they don't understand or -care- to understand what they're getting into.

People are dumb, yes, but the human species is not some mindless meat beast and I get real sick of hearing people oversimplify the human condition to "we're all just stupid and evil creatures and should die off the planet". Nobody actually buys this philosophy because if they did, they'd suicide. That's the logical outcome of a belief that human life is worthless and disgusting. Put up or else put a bullet in your head and quit bothering those of us who see the wild, uncontained beauty in all of this.

My basic idea is that people who take this anxiety and fear and distrust that we're all feeling, but can't locate the real sources of (since in reality it's more complicated and requires more personal change and effort than "the ebil government is controllin us puppets"), don't have a very realistic grip on what's going on so they pour all of these emotions, which is only natural if you have a skewed understanding of what's going on, into conspiracy theory and doomsday prophecy. "It's not our fault! The Man makes it all happen this way!" or maybe "Humans are just awful animals and ruin everything they touch! No wonder everything's going to shit, oh boo hoo!" if you like.

[ArtOfTheGroove]

I think a big part of the problem is not that humans are stupid or evil, but that the vast majority of them live their lives mostly asleep and/or driven by their egos. This makes them easy prey for capitalists, the government, TV, etc.

So who's at fault? I don't know - what came first, the chicken or the egg?

[saturdayindex]

If our dollar's gonna collapse, bring it on! The idiots who live in and run my country need a swift kick in the ass.

Bring back the gold standard.

[Korona 1969]

What effect does the US credit crisis have on your country?

The Australian/USA exchange rate has plummeted. Not that long ago it was in the high 90s, it seemed almost certain we'd hit parity (1 Australian dollar = 1 US dollar). From a news report in May this year:

"Commonwealth Bank of Australia chief currency strategist Richard Grace sees the currency reaching parity by the end of September, before ebbing lower to around 96 US cents in December due to mild recovery in the US dollar."

On Friday the exchange rate was down to 65 cents. At the end of the year I receive a bonus, of which I had earmarked half of the money for a music buying frenzy (16 CDs)! At the current exchange rate the exact same order is almost $100 more expensive.

[Aesthetics]

Just read an article that the budget deficit has tripled the past year. And also came across this debt clock.

The current Outstanding Public Debt:



The Outstanding Public Debt as of 14 Oct 2008 at 11:40:55 PM GMT is:
10,308,270,831,821.33
The estimated population of the United States is 304,908,851
so each citizen's share of this debt is $33,807.60.

amazing



Seems like the war on Iraq didn't bring the money they wanted. At least not in short term.

[turquoise70]

as if anyone but the very most powerful and a few minor idiots were ever excited about that war. we're not happy about it either.