____twoism

machinea wrote:

dp wrote:I've just read this whole thread. And any man who would remove his penis so he can become a woman is a disgrace to the male race.

Frankly I don't even know how to respond to you. But I'm going to temper my response and assume you are uneducated. Quite frankly your statement is just flat out misogynistic "A disgrace to the 'male race'" There is NO SUCH THING as a male race. I know Cole doesn't require my defense and this is a public space where you are free to say what you wish but it isn't called for. Why call him a disgrace? It took real courage for him to admit to how he's really feeling and this is your response? Why not just leave it alone if you disagree? Or approach it differently and just say Wow that seems really extreme, that seems a very hard decision to make, one I'm glad I don't have to, or whatever?

I remember a time when I was young and I felt not that it was a disgrace but a very difficult problem that I was rather judgmental about. I finally acknowledged that my judgment came from a place of having defeated the overwhelming desire to be male and so somehow these other people had failed where I had succeeded. I finally realized it was no different than how straight people viewed gay people in many circumstances or god forbid "ex" gays viewed practicing gays. As if it was something we could choose our way out of or should even bother to fight our way out of. I grant that it is far more of a challenge to change what hormones and biology have dictated but it is still the same premise. People shouldn't have to "overcome" their essential selves baring it causing someone else harm. And the idea that we are binary gendered beings is a lie. My hope is that one day that surgery isn't so difficult painful and expensive. I would think you might want to examine where your bias comes from.

I know we are essentially anonymous here but it still comes down to if you can't say something nice or supportive why say anything at all? At a minimum your post is unkind, but actually it's just fucking offensive.

Ease up just a bit.

There's no need for this shit again.

From what I can tell, dp is probably a straight male (as is probably the bulk of this forum, considering female BoC fans are a rarity) and to us, the thought of chopping off any part of the male genetalia is almost like murdering your whole family and drowning 100 puppies in an acid bath. That's PROBABLY where his "bias comes from".

Now, there's a certain genetic code that dictates whether we are "male" or "female". There's a function of life coded in. It's not a "lie" that biologically, these things we consider to be the "sexes" are, with the exception of some extremely rare genetic defects, polarized down to two.

HOWEVER, that does not mean that people in modern society need to identify with two "genders" in representation of male/female. You can be whatever you'd like to be and that should be your choice. If you choose to opt out of feeling/acting/living male/female or either, nobody should really give you shit for it.

In the long run though, unless you take drastic action, it will not change the biological configuration you have been (unfairly) given in the embryonic process. It's a sad, unbalanced world, I know. We have to come to some conclusions initially though or we'll never develop to the point where people can be accepted as whatever gender they feel represents them.

Rodheh wrote: everything waterbagel wanted to say, quite eloquently

this goes for both posts

I met a really nice girl today. We've been chatting for a while now. She's really cool.

Waterbagel wrote:

Rodheh wrote: everything waterbagel wanted to say, quite eloquently

this goes for both posts

Thanks man.

Really? I think I gave a pretty tempered response given how that post came off. I don't really care if most of this forum is filled with straight men at all. I like straight men, get along with most of them, but then the men I know wouldn't say this kind of thing to another human being about a very difficult thing to live with. I don't get a sense of dp trying to be understanding or showing anything in that post at all other than flat out being transphobic and insulting beyond belief. I think fighting with people on the interwebs is pretty stupid and I'm not a fan of censorship. If the mods want to have a say about my being over the top I'll accept it. I've alerted Cole to this post and apologized to him personally if he felt I was over the top.

And just to be clear I play it both ways, when I see gay people being douches I don't give them a pass just because "they've been oppressed and we all need to be more understanding" type of nonsense. A person's feelings are a person's feelings but really I think it's a matter of class. dp's post wasn't nice, and it wasn't respectful.

machinea wrote:Really? I think I gave a pretty tempered response given how that post came off. I don't really care if most of this forum is filled with straight men at all. I like straight men, get along with most of them, but then the men I know wouldn't say this kind of thing to another human being about a very difficult thing to live with. I don't get a sense of dp trying to be understanding or showing anything in that post at all other than flat out being transphobic and insulting beyond belief. I think fighting with people on the interwebs is pretty stupid and I'm not a fan of censorship. If the mods want to have a say about my being over the top I'll accept it. I've alerted Cole to this post and apologized to him personally if he felt I was over the top.

And just to be clear I play it both ways, when I see gay people being douches I don't give them a pass just because "they've been oppressed and we all need to be more understanding" type of nonsense. A person's feelings are a person's feelings but really I think it's a matter of class. dp's post wasn't nice, and it wasn't respectful.

It seemed mildly tempered. Honestly, to me it was nothing, I'm just putting myself into DP's position for the sake of discussion.


Now, nobody criticized you of "not playing it both ways" or being PC, or any shit like that, I just think that a part of DP's response was a shock reaction and that, again, unless you're a straight man you probably wouldn't see it from the same POV. Was it right for him to absolutely make a comment like it being a "disgrace to the male race"? No, not at all, and a fair criticism should be made. However, it seems as though your response did not take into consideration the intensity and disgust the idea of removing ones genitals tends to invoke in a human being. It really, seriously is a big deal to a lot, probably most of us.


I think this is probably the best way I can say this.

Most men tend to, unfortunately, think from their dick and not their brain, and the ones who don't still very much so value it. The flipside would be something along the lines of suggesting the idea of removing your arms to a drummer, or your vocal chords to a singer. Expect some degree of irrationality in the blowback. It's a human response.

Rodheh wrote:Now, nobody criticized you of "not playing it both ways" or being PC, or any shit like that, I just think that a part of DP's response was a shock reaction and that, again, unless you're a straight man you probably wouldn't see it from the same POV. Was it right for him to absolutely make a comment like it being a "disgrace to the male race"? No, not at all, and a fair criticism should be made. However, it seems as though your response did not take into consideration the intensity and disgust the idea of removing ones genitals tends to invoke in a human being. It really, seriously is a big deal to a lot, probably most of us.


I think this is probably the best way I can say this.

I know nobody made that accusation. I was just stating it for the record in case it crossed anyone's mind. I'm pretty new here as far as membership goes and don't have history of being fair, funny, argumentative or anything else. I have a pretty long standing history on muffwigglers and the guys there pretty well know I can take a piss with the best of 'em. There are very heated discussions over there and I really try to stay out of it mostly. I'm less likely to let things get under my own skin as opposed to how I respond on someone else's behalf. I can imagine it's pretty cringe worthy to think of one's genitals being cut off in all its Freudian glory gosh catheterization makes me wince even when its not my own urethra. I don't not think its a big deal. However I'm gonna have to take Cole's side in this even though he hasn't been here to speak up about it since this went down. It's his body, it's his decision, and it's his consideration for his feelings that need to come first in my opinion. I did take into consideration what Dp's gut response could be, I know what my response has been in the past as I stated, I also take into consideration that dp typed it in and hit return and left it out there for Cole to see.

I guess what I don't understand and maybe someone can explain it to me why do people feel it necessary to give their opinion on things like this? Like if I'm with my gf and we are spending time with our kids I know people look at us and think "oh man I wish gays couldn't adopt" I know they do, but why do they feel a need to come up to me and make their objections known? Or I recall when members of my family would see an interracial couple and pass a remark. I'm certainly glad they didn't feel a need to approach the couple and let them know their disapproval but I personally wish they hadn't even said it outloud because it did cause my respect for them to drop. I don't know I've just noticed this tendency for some people to feel it necessary to let their disapproval be known and I just wonder why? It's just never occurred to me to be one of those people I guess.

machinea wrote:

Rodheh wrote:Now, nobody criticized you of "not playing it both ways" or being PC, or any shit like that, I just think that a part of DP's response was a shock reaction and that, again, unless you're a straight man you probably wouldn't see it from the same POV. Was it right for him to absolutely make a comment like it being a "disgrace to the male race"? No, not at all, and a fair criticism should be made. However, it seems as though your response did not take into consideration the intensity and disgust the idea of removing ones genitals tends to invoke in a human being. It really, seriously is a big deal to a lot, probably most of us.


I think this is probably the best way I can say this.

I know nobody made that accusation. I was just stating it for the record in case it crossed anyone's mind. I'm pretty new here as far as membership goes and don't have history of being fair, funny, argumentative or anything else. I have a pretty long standing history on muffwigglers and the guys there pretty well know I can take a piss with the best of 'em. There are very heated discussions over there and I really try to stay out of it mostly. I'm less likely to let things get under my own skin as opposed to how I respond on someone else's behalf. I can imagine it's pretty cringe worthy to think of one's genitals being cut off in all its Freudian glory gosh catheterization makes me wince even when its not my own urethra. I don't not think its a big deal. However I'm gonna have to take Cole's side in this even though he hasn't been here to speak up about it since this went down. It's his body, it's his decision, and it's his consideration for his feelings that need to come first in my opinion. I did take into consideration what Dp's gut response could be, I know what my response has been in the past as I stated, I also take into consideration that dp typed it in and hit return and left it out there for Cole to see.

I guess what I don't understand and maybe someone can explain it to me why do people feel it necessary to give their opinion on things like this? Like if I'm with my gf and we are spending time with our kids I know people look at us and think "oh man I wish gays couldn't adopt" I know they do, but why do they feel a need to come up to me and make their objections known? Or I recall when members of my family would see an interracial couple and pass a remark. I'm certainly glad they didn't feel a need to approach the couple and let them know their disapproval but I personally wish they hadn't even said it outloud because it did cause my respect for them to drop. I don't know I've just noticed this tendency for some people to feel it necessary to let their disapproval be known and I just wonder why? It's just never occurred to me to be one of those people I guess.

Why is it then that it usually only becomes a matter of concern when dissaproving opinions surface?


I can't speak for Cole. However, it seems to me that he/she's an intelligent person and therefore must understand that in posting what he/she has posted the response may be either positive or negative. In a constant state of trying to better oneself, it would seem logical to me that the best thing to do would be to embrace all of the feedback and try to formulate a middleground.


To answer your question literally, I'm not sure why people have to be like that. I guess for the same reason people have to act nicely, they're demonstrating a representation, facaded or not, of their personal feelings towards the original statement/action. In the case of the people who criticize you because you're a gay person with children (or so it seems to me, just presuming), it's probably because they're brainwashed and conditioned by religion and society. Very rarely does such a feeling stem originally from the individual and thus, the greatest response is simply to ignore them in hopes they someday evolve past their superstitious nonsense.


My main concern, when I get down to the point, is that your response to dp was one of condemnation as opposed to query. I personally disagreed with almost everything he stated in his post. I chose to respond with a question as to why he feels that way and why he apparently thinks himself the arbiter of someone else's decisions. That is all. It's not my job to promote my take on neutrality/devils advocacy to everyone else and I think it'd be best for us to move on and focus on the topic of the thread, which is in this case girls.

I live in Japan. Being a white American male, I stick out like sore thumb here. I get stared at a lot here. I'm discriminated against here. I'm uncomfortable, I don't fit in. What if i decided i don't want to be white anymore, i want to be a Japanese. Should i change my skin color to yellow, and my change my eyes to narrow, and change my hair to straight/black? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? All of this just to feel comfortable in my own skin?

Some things are chosen for us, and we have no control over it. Deal with it.

I'm not saying anything negative towards anyone here. But cutting off your penis because you think you are supposed to be a girl just sounds ridiculous to me. And anyone who does it, I have no respect for. I'm sorry. That's just the way I am. Same goes for women trying to be men. You were put on this Earth as a guy. Embrace it.

If you want to be gay, be gay. If you want to dress up like a girl, then do it. But for the love of fuck, don't cut your dick off.

dp wrote:I live in Japan. Being a white American male, I stick out like sore thumb here. I get stared at a lot here. I'm discriminated against here. I'm uncomfortable, I don't fit in. What if i decided i don't want to be white anymore, i want to be a Japanese. Should i change my skin color to yellow, and my change my eyes to narrow, and change my hair to straight/black? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? All of this just to feel comfortable in my own skin?

Some things are chosen for us, and we have no control over it. Deal with it.

I'm not saying anything negative towards anyone here. But cutting off your penis because you think you are supposed to be a girl just sounds ridiculous to me. And anyone who does it, I have no respect for. I'm sorry. That's just the way I am. Same goes for women trying to be men. You were put on this Earth as a guy. Embrace it.

If you want to be gay, be gay. If you want to dress up like a girl, then do it. But for the love of fuck, don't cut your dick off.

So then is being male/female biologically mutual with gender binary?

Also, what if someone is born with OCD, Tourette's Syndrome, Aspergers and Bipolarism, with three arms, a stubby dick and eyes that don't work. Should they embrace their defects or try to change them?

so uhh.. yeah!

fujee wrote:Boobies!!

EDIT: in all seriousness, it seems like we've got two largely dissenting opinions that, at this point, cannot be settled.
kinda like arguing pro-life and pro-choice
neither is absolutely morally right or wrong.. it's a huge grey area.. and further contemplation and arguing in this certain thread is going to lead us nowhere. i believe t70 made a good thread about it all earlier (not sure, can't remember, and a little too tired to look it up). more civil debate could probably be had there.

back to

fujee wrote:Boobies!!

Waterbagel wrote: i believe t70 made a good thread about it all earlier (not sure, can't remember, and a little too tired to look it up)

Take your ramblings here:
http://www.twoism.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8539

Rodheh wrote:

dp wrote:I live in Japan. Being a white American male, I stick out like sore thumb here. I get stared at a lot here. I'm discriminated against here. I'm uncomfortable, I don't fit in. What if i decided i don't want to be white anymore, i want to be a Japanese. Should i change my skin color to yellow, and my change my eyes to narrow, and change my hair to straight/black? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? All of this just to feel comfortable in my own skin?

Some things are chosen for us, and we have no control over it. Deal with it.

I'm not saying anything negative towards anyone here. But cutting off your penis because you think you are supposed to be a girl just sounds ridiculous to me. And anyone who does it, I have no respect for. I'm sorry. That's just the way I am. Same goes for women trying to be men. You were put on this Earth as a guy. Embrace it.

If you want to be gay, be gay. If you want to dress up like a girl, then do it. But for the love of fuck, don't cut your dick off.

So then is being male/female biologically mutual with gender binary?

Also, what if someone is born with OCD, Tourette's Syndrome, Aspergers and Bipolarism, with three arms, a stubby dick and eyes that don't work. Should they embrace their defects or try to change them?

I don't see how being born a male (or female for that matter) can be considered a "defect" and warrants changing oneself to the opposite sex.

dp wrote:

Rodheh wrote:

dp wrote:I live in Japan. Being a white American male, I stick out like sore thumb here. I get stared at a lot here. I'm discriminated against here. I'm uncomfortable, I don't fit in. What if i decided i don't want to be white anymore, i want to be a Japanese. Should i change my skin color to yellow, and my change my eyes to narrow, and change my hair to straight/black? Sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? All of this just to feel comfortable in my own skin?

Some things are chosen for us, and we have no control over it. Deal with it.

I'm not saying anything negative towards anyone here. But cutting off your penis because you think you are supposed to be a girl just sounds ridiculous to me. And anyone who does it, I have no respect for. I'm sorry. That's just the way I am. Same goes for women trying to be men. You were put on this Earth as a guy. Embrace it.

If you want to be gay, be gay. If you want to dress up like a girl, then do it. But for the love of fuck, don't cut your dick off.

So then is being male/female biologically mutual with gender binary?

Also, what if someone is born with OCD, Tourette's Syndrome, Aspergers and Bipolarism, with three arms, a stubby dick and eyes that don't work. Should they embrace their defects or try to change them?

I don't see how being born a male (or female for that matter) can be considered a "defect" and warrants changing oneself to the opposite sex.

To some, the feeling is all the same as someone with a defect.

Seriously, think about it. What if you're godawfully sick and tired of being whatever biological gender you are and see no reason to live.

Actually, Post Redacted because I took DP's comment personally at first, and I now realize that it really isn't personal in nature. DP is uncomfortable with the thought of his penis being messed with and there's nothing wrong or bad about that. I, however, am not, and his opinion does not affect me or what I am going to do with my life.

In that same breath, though, please research Sex Reassignment Surgery. It is not "cutting one's dick off".

Calling me a disgrace to malehood, however, is like calling an orange a disgrace to applehood. The point is kind of moot, since I wasn't going for malehood in the first place. Keep malehood. Do good things with it. I have no use for it.

DP, I kind of feel sorry for you because your viewpoint is very quickly becoming commonly accepted as backwards, domineering and all-around wrongspirited. Making broad pronouncements about how people ought to behave with regard to their gender or sexuality is coming to be understood for the abusive ignorance that it is, and people who make those pronouncements are ultimately becoming less and less numerous. Attitudes like the one you hold are being used around the world to harm people needlessly, and I strongly encourage you to reassess where your views on this are coming from.

I think it's time I step out of this thread and move the fuck on.


I shouldn't intervene. There's no reason to be a part of this thing which never involved me.

Rodheh wrote:My main concern, when I get down to the point, is that your response to dp was one of condemnation as opposed to query. I personally disagreed with almost everything he stated in his post. I chose to respond with a question as to why he feels that way and why he apparently thinks himself the arbiter of someone else's decisions. That is all..

Your way is definitely the better way Rodeh. You tried to be understanding and I commend you for that. Basically when I see judgment and condemnation aimed at race, gender, gender identity or sexual preference I pretty much hold all of those in the same esteem as I feel they come from the same place. I can't help but think we are in the 21st century and unless it's someone our grandparents age I give them no quarter. Maybe you've heard the saying "When you prick homophobe a misogynist bleeds"

Dp frankly I understand being an outsider. But the fact is you can learn to deal with it or you can move. You essentially have what boils down to a "lifestyle choice" to live in Japan. Where is Cole supposed to move to? I do hope you decide to get to know someone who deals with these things and your understanding broadens and deepens as a human being. But likewise when you say things such as disgraceful and lose respect. I find you a male not yet worthy of the manhood he feels his penis bestowed on him. Maleness is something you are born with manhood is something you earn and become as it is part of the greater whole of humanness.

machinea wrote:

Rodheh wrote:My main concern, when I get down to the point, is that your response to dp was one of condemnation as opposed to query. I personally disagreed with almost everything he stated in his post. I chose to respond with a question as to why he feels that way and why he apparently thinks himself the arbiter of someone else's decisions. That is all..

Your way is definitely the better way Rodeh. You tried to be understanding and I commend you for that. Basically when I see judgment and condemnation aimed at race, gender, gender identity or sexual preference I pretty much hold all of those in the same esteem as I feel they come from the same place. I can't help but think we are in the 21st century and unless it's someone our grandparents age I give them no quarter. Maybe you've heard the saying "When you prick homophobe a misogynist bleeds"

Dp frankly I understand being an outsider. But the fact is you can learn to deal with it or you can move. You essentially have what boils down to a "lifestyle choice" to live in Japan. Where is Cole supposed to move to? I do hope you decide to get to know someone who deals with these things and your understanding broadens and deepens as a human being. But likewise when you say things such as disgraceful and lose respect. I find you a man not worthy of the manhood he feels his penis bestowed on him. Maleness is something you are born with manhood is something you earn.

I'm not trying to be understanding of his point of view I don't even agree with, I just don't like to make an absolute judgement about what he stated and throw all my emotions into doing the same thing effectively that he did.


Although, I want to make it clear that I don't think you did that. Like I said, you seemed mildy-tempered.


That being said, I agree with the latter section of your post. I don't think dp correlates being an outsider to feeling like a female trapped in a male's body or the opposite. Had he done so, his OWN post would have actually served as a flawless demonstration of why what he said before was wrong.


Also, what's up with people calling me "Rodeh"? Lol, not that it bothers me too much...It's just...not my name.

Rodheh wrote:Also, what's up with people calling me "Rodeh"? Lol, not that it bothers me too much...It's just...not my name.

sorry... mistype before caffeine. I go by syzygywell on a few other forums or syz for short and then people start calling my suzy or suz. and it gets a tad annoying.

machinea wrote:

Rodheh wrote:Also, what's up with people calling me "Rodeh"? Lol, not that it bothers me too much...It's just...not my name.

sorry... mistype before caffeine. I go by syzygywell on a few other forums or syz for short and then people start calling my suzy or suz. and it gets a tad annoying.

I hear ya.