____twoism

powershoes wrote:

Julian Candy wrote:suicide

being sad is okay. leaving the planet by your own hands is not okay.

the world is a big place with many possibilities. someone will love you very much someday.

Why is that not okay? Isn't that his personal choice?

Furthermore, have you ever been depressed to the point of wanting to commit suicide, powershoes?

Rodheh wrote:

powershoes wrote:

Julian Candy wrote:suicide

being sad is okay. leaving the planet by your own hands is not okay.

Why is that not okay? Isn't that his personal choice?

if i were feeling suicidal, someone or anyone telling me that everything is going to be okay and to not kill myself would be exactly what i would need to hear. if caring enough to reach out to a suicidal stranger is a crime, then i must be a monster. i was voicing concern about the general concept of suicide and offering a caring viewpoint, not delegating julian's personal decisions.

Rodheh wrote:Furthermore, have you ever been depressed to the point of wanting to commit suicide, powershoes?

EDIT: lengthy post removed. nobody cares and never will.

powershoes wrote:

Rodheh wrote:

powershoes wrote:being sad is okay. leaving the planet by your own hands is not okay.

Why is that not okay? Isn't that his personal choice?

if i were feeling suicidal, someone or anyone telling me that everything is going to be okay and to not kill myself would be exactly what i would need to hear. if caring enough to reach out to a suicidal stranger is a crime, then i must be a monster. i was voicing concern about the general concept of suicide and offering a caring viewpoint, not delegating julian's personal decisions.

Rodheh wrote:Furthermore, have you ever been depressed to the point of wanting to commit suicide, powershoes?

in november 2009, i was[long text that doesn't need to be quoted]

It's very different for many people. It just drives me up a wall the facade so many people put on when someone is about to commit suicide. In my case when I was gearing up to do it on the multiple occasions the people I've told only made me more angered. Aside from the fact that many people really could give less of a shit about the feelings of another up until that point, they throw out things like "everything is going to get better". The person intending to commit suicide could be suffering from clinical depression do to a chemical imbalance. Saying "things will get better" is really not going to improve the quality of life in that particular person, and making the assumption that someone will be loved some point in time later in their life is completely foolish.


I don't know what Julian's situation exactly is. I'm just speaking out for the viewpoint that is almost never taken. He is arbiter of his own life...and now I've seen on about ten separate occasions on this same forum the "things will get better" cliche posted in response.


If things were getting fucking better, don't you think he'd let us know?

Shit isn't getting any fucking better in my life either, and I know I don't have to accept the life I've been unfairly dealt for one more second if I don't want to. The only thing that keeps me going is a desire to hopefully one day see all the corruption in this world burn in some sort of catastrophic event, just to know that there's a little justice.


So make some observations, please. If the reassurance that others are concerned and the proposition of hope isn't helping someone's situation, that probably isn't what they need.

It just seems that.. Most of the time when suicide is thought of as an option, or the word is thrown around.. It's usually a rash decision. The "everything gets better" response can be good just to get the person out of that rash thinking. Very few people consider it seriously for an extended period of time.

I do agree that one person has control of their life. Suicide is their option. But, doing it out of emotion is just as silly as buying a house out of emotion, throwing someone else's stuff out out of emotion, or doing anything else so life-changing without throwing logic and reason into the ring. All too often, the emotional part has the biggest bearing in the decision.

Rodheh wrote:Saying "things will get better" is really not going to improve the quality of life in that particular person, and making the assumption that someone will be loved some point in time later in their life is completely foolish.

considering that this is an internet forum, there isn't much more that a person can do to help. in the long run, emotional bandaids wear off. even so, i still believe that anyone can turn his or her life around with a little effort. usually, all a depressed person needs is a real friend.

Waterbagel wrote:The "everything gets better" response can be good just to get the person out of that rash thinking. Very few people consider it seriously for an extended period of time.

that is precisely the intended response. depression can be painful and debilitating; sometimes a person just needs to be taken out of themselves for awhile. get some ice cream or sit by a lake or something. it's easier for a person to rationalize when emotions aren't running so high.

it's true: no-one knows the real source of someone's depression; artifacts are discovered by the archaeologist. even so, it is important to do something you love for your own sake every day. you will gradually begin to feel better about yourself. depression doesn't subside overnight; the healing process takes considerable time and effort.

powershoes wrote:

Rodheh wrote:Saying "things will get better" is really not going to improve the quality of life in that particular person, and making the assumption that someone will be loved some point in time later in their life is completely foolish.

considering that this is an internet forum, there isn't much more that a person can do to help. in the long run, emotional bandaids wear off. even so, i still believe that anyone can turn his or her life around with a little effort. usually, all a depressed person needs is a real friend.

Well, if that's what has worked for you and those you know, then that's wonderful. Maybe general depression itself is easy to overcome in that manner.

I wish the situation were that simple for everyone though.

powershoes wrote:usually, all a depressed person needs is a real friend.

powershoes wrote:sometimes a person just needs to be taken out of themselves for awhile. get some ice cream or sit by a lake or something. it's easier for a person to rationalize when emotions aren't running so high.

powershoes wrote:depression doesn't subside overnight; the healing process takes considerable time and effort.

agreed with all your points.

So then what if you don't have any "real friends" and every second of the "healing process" is uncomfortable to the point of requiring social isolation to remain calm? Then what? What should be done then?

I mean, did it ever occur to any of you that someone may be actually incapable of doing these things without stressing the problem even more?

powershoes wrote:usually, all a depressed person needs is a real friend.

powershoes wrote:sometimes a person just needs to be taken out of themselves for awhile. get some ice cream or sit by a lake or something. it's easier for a person to rationalize when emotions aren't running so high.

powershoes wrote:depression doesn't subside overnight; the healing process takes considerable time and effort.

i took his suggestions to be emphatically subjective. mileage may vary.

powershoes wrote:
the world is a big place with many possibilities. someone will love you very much someday.

Not sure how true this is in my case, but reading this was kind of what I needed so it's kind of helped me not feel so sad. Thanks.

Rodheh wrote:I mean, did it ever occur to any of you that someone may be actually incapable of doing these things without stressing the problem even more?

Then you have to come at it from a different direction. If someone can make it through the healing process on their own, and come out standing on two feet, they'll have been touched by an extraordinary amount of self confidence, noting where they have come and where they stand. But that's hard-- what they need at LEAST is something to strive towards, and they have to want it. That's what friends or just things around you that motivate are important for, making you WANT to get better, in the long run. If you don't want it, you won't let yourself move forward.

There's lots of ways to go at it, but one has to seek and desire to get out of the hole, otherwise they'll keep digging until someone else pulls them out. Which case I get what you mean, what SHOULD someone do? Well, seeing a counselor is always an option. There are always places to make friends, too. It can be anyone.

Just never deflate to the idea of having no control. You do have control-- you can look at breaking an arm as a disability that will inhibit your body for many months. Or, you can look at it as an ability to grow stronger in every other area. The positive mindset is the most important one to have; without it, you'll see the bad in everything, and it will keep jotting you reasons to end your days.

I've come to think that depression truly is an inebriating experience. I try to not let myself make ANY big decisions when depressed, for the same reasons I wouldn't make any big decisions when high, or drunk. The world literally is interpreted way differently, in an overall pessimistic, and negative fashion. Declining an otherwise wonderful offer because you were depressed, or having some sort of "epiphany" that hasn't been reassured by your mind in a clear phase, is acting blindly. As I said, positivity is key, because it seems we are most functional and rational when we aren't being distracted and distorted by depression.

Sorry, bit of a rant. hopefully it's coherent. I can never be too sure these days.

Spenner wrote:

Rodheh wrote:I mean, did it ever occur to any of you that someone may be actually incapable of doing these things without stressing the problem even more?

Then you have to come at it from a different direction. If someone can make it through the healing process on their own, and come out standing on two feet, they'll have been touched by an extraordinary amount of self confidence, noting where they have come and where they stand. But that's hard-- what they need at LEAST is something to strive towards, and they have to want it. That's what friends or just things around you that motivate are important for, making you WANT to get better, in the long run. If you don't want it, you won't let yourself move forward.

There's lots of ways to go at it, but one has to seek and desire to get out of the hole, otherwise they'll keep digging until someone else pulls them out. Which case I get what you mean, what SHOULD someone do? Well, seeing a counselor is always an option. There are always places to make friends, too. It can be anyone.

Just never deflate to the idea of having no control. You do have control-- you can look at breaking an arm as a disability that will inhibit your body for many months. Or, you can look at it as an ability to grow stronger in every other area. The positive mindset is the most important one to have; without it, you'll see the bad in everything, and it will keep jotting you reasons to end your days.

I've come to think that depression truly is an inebriating experience. I try to not let myself make ANY big decisions when depressed, for the same reasons I wouldn't make any big decisions when high, or drunk. The world literally is interpreted way differently, in an overall pessimistic, and negative fashion. Declining an otherwise wonderful offer because you were depressed, or having some sort of "epiphany" that hasn't been reassured by your mind in a clear phase, is acting blindly. As I said, positivity is key, because it seems we are most functional and rational when we aren't being distracted and distorted by depression.

Sorry, bit of a rant. hopefully it's coherent. I can never be too sure these days.

Yes, it's coherent. It just makes me wonder though how bad everyone else's situation actually is. I can't even assess how to improve my situation unless I'm medicated to begin with, so it must be really nice to have the problem insignificant enough to the point where friends/therapy can treat it.

I seem to agree with both rodreh and powershoes here. It all derends all of situation and circumstance. I've slowly killing myself with excessive drinking and smoking, knowing the damage it is doing. I can't escape my situation nor rectify it. Too lethargic to elaborate.

oops sry.

friends/therapy

Rodheh wrote: It's very different for many people. It just drives me up a wall the facade so many people put on when someone is about to commit suicide. In my case when I was gearing up to do it on the multiple occasions the people I've told only made me more angered. Aside from the fact that many people really could give less of a shit about the feelings of another up until that point, they throw out things like "everything is going to get better". The person intending to commit suicide could be suffering from clinical depression do to a chemical imbalance. Saying "things will get better" is really not going to improve the quality of life in that particular person, and making the assumption that someone will be loved some point in time later in their life is completely foolish.

I don't know what Julian's situation exactly is. I'm just speaking out for the viewpoint that is almost never taken. He is arbiter of his own life...and now I've seen on about ten separate occasions on this same forum the "things will get better" cliche posted in response.

If things were getting fucking better, don't you think he'd let us know?

Shit isn't getting any fucking better in my life either, and I know I don't have to accept the life I've been unfairly dealt for one more second if I don't want to. The only thing that keeps me going is a desire to hopefully one day see all the corruption in this world burn in some sort of catastrophic event, just to know that there's a little justice.


So make some observations, please. If the reassurance that others are concerned and the proposition of hope isn't helping someone's situation, that probably isn't what they need.

You know the worst thing for depression? Negativity. Having people tell you all this bullshit, like the world is such a twisted place, people are evil... blah blah blah. Quit crying and just get on with your life, like everyone else! Yes empty words are useless, but your words are actually worse since they just excite that depressive spark. The worst part is that you are so cock sure of your own viewpoints that you don't care how that might rub off on other people. What makes your viewpoint so crystal clear?

Sure everyone knows they have the choice to end their life if they want to, thats not a right its just a fact, everyone could physically do it. But so what, does that mean you just want to let someone do it because that is their choice, that's worse then having no emotions at all you robot. I am not implying anyone should deny someone else that option, but its better to have tried and failed. Your statement about waiting for some cataclysmic event is just nonsense, if you had any intention of actually doing anything, you would just end it, period. As it stands that just sounds like teenage rebellion.

Take this as advice from someone who has tried to end it, has clinically diagnosed major depression, and is on heavy anti depressants. You realy need to try and open your mind Rodheh. Life can always twist around in a short space of time, in ways nobody can expect.

Pantheon wrote:

Rodheh wrote: It's very different for many people. It just drives me up a wall the facade so many people put on when someone is about to commit suicide. In my case when I was gearing up to do it on the multiple occasions the people I've told only made me more angered. Aside from the fact that many people really could give less of a shit about the feelings of another up until that point, they throw out things like "everything is going to get better". The person intending to commit suicide could be suffering from clinical depression do to a chemical imbalance. Saying "things will get better" is really not going to improve the quality of life in that particular person, and making the assumption that someone will be loved some point in time later in their life is completely foolish.

I don't know what Julian's situation exactly is. I'm just speaking out for the viewpoint that is almost never taken. He is arbiter of his own life...and now I've seen on about ten separate occasions on this same forum the "things will get better" cliche posted in response.

If things were getting fucking better, don't you think he'd let us know?

Shit isn't getting any fucking better in my life either, and I know I don't have to accept the life I've been unfairly dealt for one more second if I don't want to. The only thing that keeps me going is a desire to hopefully one day see all the corruption in this world burn in some sort of catastrophic event, just to know that there's a little justice.


So make some observations, please. If the reassurance that others are concerned and the proposition of hope isn't helping someone's situation, that probably isn't what they need.

You know the worst thing for depression? Negativity. Having people tell you all this bullshit, like the world is such a twisted place, people are evil... blah blah blah. Quit crying and just get on with your life, like everyone else! Yes empty words are useless, but your words are actually worse since they just excite that depressive spark. The worst part is that you are so cock sure of your own viewpoints that you don't care how that might rub off on other people. What makes your viewpoint so crystal clear?

Sure everyone knows they have the choice to end their life if they want to, thats not a right its just a fact, everyone could physically do it. But so what, does that mean you just want to let someone do it because that is their choice, that's worse then having no emotions at all you robot. I am not implying anyone should deny someone else that option, but its better to have tried and failed. Your statement about waiting for some cataclysmic event is just nonsense, if you had any intention of actually doing anything, you would just end it, period. As it stands that just sounds like teenage rebellion.

Take this as advice from someone who has tried to end it, has clinically diagnosed major depression, and is on heavy anti depressants. You realy need to try and open your mind Rodheh. Life can always twist around in a short space of time, in ways nobody can expect.

Oh, my mind is open. I'd love to be able to wake up and not feel horrible due to depression that rarely stops, I'd love to be able to not have OCD that causes me to think about things far longer than the point of being relevant, recalling every horrible event that's occurred in my life with great detail, I'd love to converse with people face to face and not start trembling and having my anxiety shoot through the roof, I'd love to lay down to go to sleep without the use of medication and not have terrible thoughts about everyone and everything fill my head, I'd love to be able to spend more than one or two hours outside of my home a day, working and visiting with actual physical friends...and on top of all that, it'd be great to not have so many horrible symptoms on top of each other that have made it as of yet impossible for myself or doctors to determine what affliction(s) I actually have.

You know what's going to fix all that for me? You know what'll allow me to "quit crying" and get on with my life?

Because if you do, PLEASE, by all means enlighten me. I'm all ears.

Look, everyone's situation is different, and I can't speak for your condition, nor can anyone else. But I can tell you what I've learned in the last 20 years of having depression. Some of that time's been medicated, some not - right now it is - and some of that time's been in and out of various types of therapy. It's not something I normally do, talk about it on the internet.

In the middle of that time I went in and out of relationships, had some of the best and worst times of my life. My big brother, who I love and has been my hero growing up got permanently paralysed from the neck down. A few years later I got paralysed through viral nerve damage and it took me a year to be able to walk again. I went to uni and met some amazing friends and had some of the best days of my life. I got married, and felt so happy I thought my heart would burst. I had 2 years in and out of A+E with Crohn's disease.

I say this not to say "look at the terrible life I've had" because it's not been terrible. I've had ups and downs like everyone does. But through it all I had this thing called "depression", and I'll probably have it forever.

And depression used to kick my ass, regularly. It's still no picnic at times, but made it easier to cope with in my life was to actually "own" the fact that I'm operating on broken machinery here. It's like a computer that has a temperature warning light that comes on saying "overheating!" and you turn the machine off in a panic, until you measure it one day and it's fine, it turns out its just the temperature sensor that's fried. Your brain is telling you you are sad.

People tell you to "get over it" "cheer up" and you think "HOW"? You start to get needlessly introspective and think "why CAN'T I get over it"? You blame yourself for feeling so bad, and feed your frustration back into your own condition. You let it turn you into a cynical bastard who can't see the good in anything without waiting for the bad just around the corner.

Until I really made peace with that fact about myself, I never really got through that, and I entertained thoughts of checking out, more than once. It's not an easy thing to live with but it levels you out once you accept that you are not the condition and the condition is not you. You adjust your life to take account and see through the black filter of depression. If I have a bad day I think "wow, depression's really biting today" but it's a seperate thing, it's something that's in my life but isn't me. I tell my wife, she gives me a hug, I steel myself, and the next day will be better. If there is nobody in your life you can tell about this, tell it here. But I guarantee you will find someone you can tell in person one day. You are not as alone as your brain is trying to torture you by telling you you are.

One last thing. Find a hill, a street corner, somewhere you can sit and watch your city or village life go by for a while. Breathe in and out, (put on some BoC!) and observe life carrying on as it does. People rush to get from A to B like it's the most important thing in the world. Some are smiling, some are furious. But life carries on once they've passed you by. And beyond the horizon you can see is a whole world that exists outside the fishbowl that is your immediate environment. The world is bigger than any of us, and time is bigger than all of our lives. If the world is grinding you down the solution is not to check out completely, but accept that it is not hopeless, you can change anything about your life, you can skip to the next town, you can change what you do. Or, you can wait till the next day and life will have carried on, and you can have a better day.

Rodheh wrote:

Pantheon wrote:

Rodheh wrote: It's very different for many people. It just drives me up a wall the facade so many people put on when someone is about to commit suicide. In my case when I was gearing up to do it on the multiple occasions the people I've told only made me more angered. Aside from the fact that many people really could give less of a shit about the feelings of another up until that point, they throw out things like "everything is going to get better". The person intending to commit suicide could be suffering from clinical depression do to a chemical imbalance. Saying "things will get better" is really not going to improve the quality of life in that particular person, and making the assumption that someone will be loved some point in time later in their life is completely foolish.

I don't know what Julian's situation exactly is. I'm just speaking out for the viewpoint that is almost never taken. He is arbiter of his own life...and now I've seen on about ten separate occasions on this same forum the "things will get better" cliche posted in response.

If things were getting fucking better, don't you think he'd let us know?

Shit isn't getting any fucking better in my life either, and I know I don't have to accept the life I've been unfairly dealt for one more second if I don't want to. The only thing that keeps me going is a desire to hopefully one day see all the corruption in this world burn in some sort of catastrophic event, just to know that there's a little justice.


So make some observations, please. If the reassurance that others are concerned and the proposition of hope isn't helping someone's situation, that probably isn't what they need.

You know the worst thing for depression? Negativity. Having people tell you all this bullshit, like the world is such a twisted place, people are evil... blah blah blah. Quit crying and just get on with your life, like everyone else! Yes empty words are useless, but your words are actually worse since they just excite that depressive spark. The worst part is that you are so cock sure of your own viewpoints that you don't care how that might rub off on other people. What makes your viewpoint so crystal clear?

Sure everyone knows they have the choice to end their life if they want to, thats not a right its just a fact, everyone could physically do it. But so what, does that mean you just want to let someone do it because that is their choice, that's worse then having no emotions at all you robot. I am not implying anyone should deny someone else that option, but its better to have tried and failed. Your statement about waiting for some cataclysmic event is just nonsense, if you had any intention of actually doing anything, you would just end it, period. As it stands that just sounds like teenage rebellion.

Take this as advice from someone who has tried to end it, has clinically diagnosed major depression, and is on heavy anti depressants. You realy need to try and open your mind Rodheh. Life can always twist around in a short space of time, in ways nobody can expect.

Oh, my mind is open. I'd love to be able to wake up and not feel horrible due to depression that rarely stops, I'd love to be able to not have OCD that causes me to think about things far longer than the point of being relevant, recalling every horrible event that's occurred in my life with great detail, I'd love to converse with people face to face and not start trembling and having my anxiety shoot through the roof, I'd love to lay down to go to sleep without the use of medication and not have terrible thoughts about everyone and everything fill my head, I'd love to be able to spend more than one or two hours outside of my home a day, working and visiting with actual physical friends...and on top of all that, it'd be great to not have so many horrible symptoms on top of each other that have made it as of yet impossible for myself or doctors to determine what affliction(s) I actually have.

You know what's going to fix all that for me? You know what'll allow me to "quit crying" and get on with my life?

Because if you do, PLEASE, by all means enlighten me. I'm all ears.

From what you write, it seems that we are more similar then you might think possible. The only difference is that after 6 years of living this life you describe I am managing to leave it behind. I realy wish I could help you, but I am sure its something that must be a consciously strived for by you, relentlessly, with out falter. With the right mindset it realy is possible to make it through to the other side.

Its like cause and effect only you realy have to work backwards and undo each and every effect reaction you have put in place to avoid the pain of the cause, if you know what I mean. Eventually you will expose the root, and you need to make sure you are strong enough to deal with it in a more healthy manner this time.
But nobody can tell you your solution, nobody, its never going to be that easy.

Also MrMessiahs advice is realy spot on, he seems to have a realy good outlook on this.

Pantheon wrote:

Rodheh wrote:

Pantheon wrote: You know the worst thing for depression? Negativity. Having people tell you all this bullshit, like the world is such a twisted place, people are evil... blah blah blah. Quit crying and just get on with your life, like everyone else! Yes empty words are useless, but your words are actually worse since they just excite that depressive spark. The worst part is that you are so cock sure of your own viewpoints that you don't care how that might rub off on other people. What makes your viewpoint so crystal clear?

Sure everyone knows they have the choice to end their life if they want to, thats not a right its just a fact, everyone could physically do it. But so what, does that mean you just want to let someone do it because that is their choice, that's worse then having no emotions at all you robot. I am not implying anyone should deny someone else that option, but its better to have tried and failed. Your statement about waiting for some cataclysmic event is just nonsense, if you had any intention of actually doing anything, you would just end it, period. As it stands that just sounds like teenage rebellion.

Take this as advice from someone who has tried to end it, has clinically diagnosed major depression, and is on heavy anti depressants. You realy need to try and open your mind Rodheh. Life can always twist around in a short space of time, in ways nobody can expect.

Oh, my mind is open. I'd love to be able to wake up and not feel horrible due to depression that rarely stops, I'd love to be able to not have OCD that causes me to think about things far longer than the point of being relevant, recalling every horrible event that's occurred in my life with great detail, I'd love to converse with people face to face and not start trembling and having my anxiety shoot through the roof, I'd love to lay down to go to sleep without the use of medication and not have terrible thoughts about everyone and everything fill my head, I'd love to be able to spend more than one or two hours outside of my home a day, working and visiting with actual physical friends...and on top of all that, it'd be great to not have so many horrible symptoms on top of each other that have made it as of yet impossible for myself or doctors to determine what affliction(s) I actually have.

You know what's going to fix all that for me? You know what'll allow me to "quit crying" and get on with my life?

Because if you do, PLEASE, by all means enlighten me. I'm all ears.

From what you write, it seems that we are more similar then you might think possible. The only difference is that after 6 years of living this life you describe I am managing to leave it behind. I realy wish I could help you, but I am sure its something that must be a consciously strived for by you, relentlessly, with out falter. With the right mindset it realy is possible to make it through to the other side.

Its like cause and effect only you realy have to work backwards and undo each and every effect reaction you have put in place to avoid the pain of the cause, if you know what I mean. Eventually you will expose the root, and you need to make sure you are strong enough to deal with it in a more healthy manner this time.
But nobody can tell you your solution, nobody, its never going to be that easy.

Also MrMessiahs advice is realy spot on, he seems to have a realy good outlook on this.

I know the root(s). One of them was most likely being born premature with genetic defects in my brain, and one of them was a poor upbringing and years of social conditioning that has taken me so long just to break free from believing and practicing the lies I was told. To remove the pain that stays with me on top of would probably require violence, or my mind isn't going to shut up.

Unfortunately I can't turn back everything I've put in place to avoid the pain or I will be institutionalized again and I really, really, REALLY don't need that.

I don't mean to dump my problem on you. This is my pain and I deal with it alone, that's the way it absolutely has to be. My family and my friends have been suffering over the loss of loved ones occurring over the past 10 years or so and they simply cannot bear my problems themselves, let alone even understand them in their entirety.

The only reason I came in to say something was because I hate it when people assume everyone's situation is the same. It's one thing to give advice to someone, it's another thing though to exert your morals and your method of treatment as though it is objective and applies to everyone. I didn't need to comment regarding my personal life, but when I saw that "being sad is okay, leaving the world by your own hands is not" I felt like kicking a hole in the wall.