____twoism

Just to correct myself the digital abstinence thing is actually called digital detox.

Usually these do nothing for me but I thought this was a good one. Especially since I don't get the idea of Instagram to begin with.

You Are Not A Gadget - Jaron Lanier



ipads are the wackest thing in the universe... got rid of my iphone. absolutely no difference for me to have a regular phone.

people who feel the need to take pictures all the time take themselves out of the experience ... it's not hard to take 3 seconds to take 1 good pic.

So I'm basically like a Twoism pariah then? I have a smartphone and I loooove it. I'm all about modern life. I love modern life. Without modern life, I would be physically unable to transition from male to female. No hormone pills, no sex reassignment surgery, no endocrinology or blood testing.

There also wouldn't be the internet. Straight up, I would be dead from suicide today if it weren't for the internet. The ONLY lasting friendships I've EVER had in my life have all formed on the internet. I don't fit in, in society. I don't fucking fit in anywhere except in the tiny little niches I've found which I have come to know as home. And without the internet being the enormous spidering network we know it as, I never would have found them. I'd still be stuck with my parents in buttfuck nowhere, USA.

I'm a person who would be -fucked- without modern life. All that natural bullshit is great if your gender matches your biology or you actually connect with humans without text on a screen, but I'm not one of those. I'm one of the less fortunate ones with a few more hurdles to jump before I can just achieve a level of comfort most people take for granted.

turquoise70 wrote:So I'm basically like a Twoism pariah then? I have a smartphone and I loooove it. I'm all about modern life. I love modern life. Without modern life, I would be physically unable to transition from male to female. No hormone pills, no sex reassignment surgery, no endocrinology or blood testing.

There also wouldn't be the internet. Straight up, I would be dead from suicide today if it weren't for the internet. The ONLY lasting friendships I've EVER had in my life have all formed on the internet. I don't fit in, in society. I don't fucking fit in anywhere except in the tiny little niches I've found which I have come to know as home. And without the internet being the enormous spidering network we know it as, I never would have found them. I'd still be stuck with my parents in buttfuck nowhere, USA.

I'm a person who would be -fucked- without modern life. All that natural bullshit is great if your gender matches your biology or you actually connect with humans without text on a screen, but I'm not one of those. I'm one of the less fortunate ones with a few more hurdles to jump before I can just achieve a level of comfort most people take for granted.

If you are then I am as well. I'm not in a gender situation, but I agree with all of this. The part about phones (even though I don't use mine except for when I'm out and about), the part about the internet and the part about not fitting in especially. If it weren't for the internet I would know about two interesting people in total, and I wouldn't be remotely happy (I'm still not, but I'd be worse). If it weren't for modern medicine I would feel even more like shit all the time. Lastly, I am in the same situation that all but maybe 1 of my true friends I met online, and I wouldn't have met those same kinds of people where I live.

I do not understand the idea people have that living life like people did in the 70's, 80's or even the 90's would be a good idea and I never will. I think it has something to do with the fact that you and I are in our 20's and there's quite a few posters here hovering around 40.

d e n wrote:You Are Not A Gadget - Jaron Lanier



ipads are the wackest thing in the universe... got rid of my iphone. absolutely no difference for me to have a regular phone.

people who feel the need to take pictures all the time take themselves out of the experience ... it's not hard to take 3 seconds to take 1 good pic.

Really don't want to be rude here, but you have such a narrow minded view on these things. It's not about taking pictures of yourself all the time. It's about having access to a device that can give you almost ANY bit of information you desire, at ANY point in time ANYWHERE. It's about having a device with GPS so you never get lost. It's about having a device that has the ability to take a photo or record a video so you can do that when there really is a good opportunity to do so. It's about having a device that allows you to watch videos, browse the internet or play games when you are bored and stuck somewhere. It's about having all of these things in one with the phone and you're judging these devices based completely on the types of people that use them to be a dickish camwhore. Smartphones are smartphones less because of the fact that they do all of these things and more because they, quite literally, are one of the smartest ideas ever thought up - equipping everyone with a portable computer that has an internet connection, be it iPhone, Android, Windows Phone, etc.


The problem here is that we've all used this opiate (to make an analogy), so to all of you though that seem so content with the idea of modern technology not being available - I'd like to see you try it. I'd like you to move somewhere you have no access to any of this. I'd like to hold you to your words, and had I the ability to observe I would roll my eyes watching you after the first week, when the feeling of isolation from the world beyond your city grows tiresome. After the first month, where you want to do something online or look up full directions while driving but can't and the feeling of want for something that was taken away from you manifests. After six months, when you come crawling back to reality. Maybe some of you will be fine, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet my life that at least 75% of you will say "fuck this" at some point.


Of course going out and camping without the internet or smartphones for a weekend is fun. That's different than wanting to make a 70's version of The Village a reality.

turquoise70 wrote:

d e n wrote:You Are Not A Gadget - Jaron Lanier



ipads are the wackest thing in the universe... got rid of my iphone. absolutely no difference for me to have a regular phone.

people who feel the need to take pictures all the time take themselves out of the experience ... it's not hard to take 3 seconds to take 1 good pic.

Really don't want to be rude here, but you have such a narrow minded view on these things. It's not about taking pictures of yourself all the time. It's about having access to a device that can give you almost ANY bit of information you desire, at ANY point in time ANYWHERE. It's about having a device with GPS so you never get lost. It's about having a device that has the ability to take a photo or record a video so you can do that when there really is a good opportunity to do so. It's about having a device that allows you to watch videos, browse the internet or play games when you are bored and stuck somewhere. It's about having all of these things in one with the phone and you're judging these devices based completely on the types of people that use them to be a dickish camwhore. Smartphones are smartphones less because of the fact that they do all of these things and more because they, quite literally, are one of the smartest ideas ever thought up - equipping everyone with a portable computer that has an internet connection, be it iPhone, Android, Windows Phone, etc.


The problem here is that we've all used this opiate (to make an analogy), so to all of you though that seem so content with the idea of modern technology not being available - I'd like to see you try it. I'd like you to move somewhere you have no access to any of this. I'd like to hold you to your words, and had I the ability to observe I would roll my eyes watching you after the first week, when the feeling of isolation from the world beyond your city grows tiresome. After the first month, where you want to do something online or look up full directions while driving but can't and the feeling of want for something that was taken away from you manifests. After six months, when you come crawling back to reality. Maybe some of you will be fine, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet my life that at least 75% of you will say "fuck this" at some point.


Of course going out and camping without the internet or smartphones for a weekend is fun. That's different than wanting to make a 70's version of The Village a reality.

Listen up homie and listen good,

I NEVER said ANYTHING about the Internet being bad. I think it's absolutely obvious that the internet does a lot of good. I only criticized the ubiquity of ipads being used in public... starting at a TV screen in places from the NYC Subway to Machu Picu.

you literally just listed a bunch of things that these devices are capable doing... and then made it seem like I claimed I don't need to use the internet... I use the internet almost everyday... I am not under the impression that if I stopped using the internet I'd automatically become a better person. That wouldn't happen.

but I honestly think it's extremely naive to think smartphones were one of the "smartest ideas ever thought up". they are just phones with internet... its nice and romantic to think that they're connecting us all or fulfilling some great social value but that isn't whats happening.

people are outsourcing their brains to the internet... i know this because I do it too... but its important to be aware of it.

yes, concern ourselves with nature only in the context of "camping weekends"... let's become content with the internet as our fundamental source of entertainment and while this is all happening lets watch the mechanization of our world systemically (even if its unconscious of how systematic it is) destroy our world, bio-diversity, and the services provided by nature that we cannot even begin to value monetarily without shitting our pants.

if you think those sentiments (not saying you do just generally) are reserved for some 'natural-bullshit-rhetoric" then you have a SAD awakening.

I whole-heartedly disagree that to fall back into a life-style of smartphones and ipads is "crawling back to reality"... the opposite is most likely true.

we are inseparable from nature and our culture has CONVINCED us otherwise... i'm out here studying ecology for my degree and that doesn't make me an expert by any means but it does mean that I can confidently say this without any underlying cultural bias. This is some real shit... culture is irrelevant: the world is undergoing it's 6th Mass Extinction and this one is full on anthropogenic.

so yes.. the internet can be an extremely good force, as it has been for turquoise in her struggles with adapting to her gender in a culture that at the moment tells you that is "unnatural" when they don't know shit. However, the internet also solidifies and pushes the fast forward button on culture's power to influence our attitudes and beliefs, ESPECIALLY among the younger generations (i am 22 btw). And in my honest opinion our modern western culture, that has been imposed on the East (think Vietnam War for example), isn't a healthy one and it is absolutely crucial that we give ourselves a chance to come to our OWN honest conclusions and, as I said, not outsource our brains to the internet... something that is hard to do when we ALWAYS have a computer by our side.

this is just how I feel honestly when I look at myself and the world around me... In reality all I am absolutely sure of is that I don't know anything.

d e n - I think you just credited the post you were replying to, to the wrong person.

Anyway, I'm utterly conflicted by my attitude to advances in technology. My life has been defined by it and having a father who is a programmer, I was surrounded by computing from a very young age.

The internet is an incredible resource and has enabled me to have discussions and friendships with people I would likely have never crossed paths with without it. I'm sure it has been an absolute lifesaver for Nicole (as it was for my friend Dawn when she wished to no longer be David).

Equally, I like solitude and simplicity, and the benefits that has for my state of mind.

Smartphones and their ilk are a tool. I use them same as everyone else but I realise that they are only as important as the people and information they connect me with. Unfortunately they make it so easy to be distracted by trivia. Humans natural state is to be easily distracted. It's what makes us as animals able to survive in a potentially dangerous world. The downside is that it's a very shallow existence without deep thinking. Social media generally has made us so connected that don't actually need to seek out meaningful experiences to keep us occupied.

It frustrates me that when we're working on music as Redpoint, Andy is constantly fiddling with his phone when all I want to do is concentrate on what we're working on in the here and now. It's sad that even something as stimulating and rewarding as making music is not absorbing enough to make us both 100% focussed.

I certainly don't want to relive the '70s but I do like to be able to regularly go offline and relate to the world around me in a more organic analogue way. For example, it feels mentally healthy for me to look up a map or route online and then try to remember it and drive to that place without a SatNav or printout to guide me. It's keeping the neural pathways that process spatial awareness and abstraction stimulated. I like discovering things rather than being told them.

^it just ended up like that cause i didn't want to quote the whole thing. it was meant for Rodeh. i mentioned turquoise70 in it though.

d e n wrote:Listen up homie and listen good,

I NEVER said ANYTHING about the Internet being bad. I think it's absolutely obvious that the internet does a lot of good. I only criticized the ubiquity of ipads being used in public... starting at a TV screen in places from the NYC Subway to Machu Picu.

you literally just listed a bunch of things that these devices are capable doing... and then made it seem like I claimed I don't need to use the internet... I use the internet almost everyday... I am not under the impression that if I stopped using the internet I'd automatically become a better person. That wouldn't happen.

but I honestly think it's extremely naive to think smartphones were one of the "smartest ideas ever thought up". they are just phones with internet... its nice and romantic to think that they're connecting us all or fulfilling some great social value but that isn't whats happening.

people are outsourcing their brains to the internet... i know this because I do it too... but its important to be aware of it.

yes, concern ourselves with nature only in the context of "camping weekends"... let's become content with the internet as our fundamental source of entertainment and while this is all happening lets watch the mechanization of our world systemically (even if its unconscious of how systematic it is) destroy our world, bio-diversity, and the services provided by nature that we cannot even begin to value monetarily without shitting our pants.

if you think those sentiments (not saying you do just generally) are reserved for some 'natural-bullshit-rhetoric" then you have a SAD awakening.

I whole-heartedly disagree that to fall back into a life-style of smartphones and ipads is "crawling back to reality"... the opposite is most likely true.

we are inseparable from nature and our culture has CONVINCED us otherwise... i'm out here studying ecology for my degree and that doesn't make me an expert by any means but it does mean that I can confidently say this without any underlying cultural bias. This is some real shit... culture is irrelevant: the world is undergoing it's 6th Mass Extinction and this one is full on anthropogenic.

so yes.. the internet can be an extremely good force, as it has been for turquoise in her struggles with adapting to her gender in a culture that at the moment tells you that is "unnatural" when they don't know shit. However, the internet also solidifies and pushes the fast forward button on culture's power to influence our attitudes and beliefs, ESPECIALLY among the younger generations (i am 22 btw). And in my honest opinion our modern western culture, that has been imposed on the East (think Vietnam War for example), isn't a healthy one and it is absolutely crucial that we give ourselves a chance to come to our OWN honest conclusions and, as I said, not outsource our brains to the internet... something that is hard to do when we ALWAYS have a computer by our side.

this is just how I feel honestly when I look at myself and the world around me... In reality all I am absolutely sure of is that I don't know anything.

don't have much to add myself beyond this post. nice work.

Interesting discussion. I can't help but feel biased to d e n's argument though,as he used the word homie.

We rely so much on the internet these days. If we can't connect, we start feeling helpless. I guess that's the thing. Like if you go on a trip, the plan is in Google instead of your head (which I suppose was written above already). Disconnect can happen at any time or the device can break down (in the old times this was known as forgetting things so yeah, we shouldn't rely on ourselves too much either). Technology will continue to improve all the time, though, of course.

Maybe it's a little bit like with calculators, they should be used as little as possible to keep your own thinking strong. Not the best comparison, but problem solving wise.

d e n wrote:

turquoise70 wrote:

d e n wrote:You Are Not A Gadget - Jaron Lanier



ipads are the wackest thing in the universe... got rid of my iphone. absolutely no difference for me to have a regular phone.

people who feel the need to take pictures all the time take themselves out of the experience ... it's not hard to take 3 seconds to take 1 good pic.

Really don't want to be rude here, but you have such a narrow minded view on these things. It's not about taking pictures of yourself all the time. It's about having access to a device that can give you almost ANY bit of information you desire, at ANY point in time ANYWHERE. It's about having a device with GPS so you never get lost. It's about having a device that has the ability to take a photo or record a video so you can do that when there really is a good opportunity to do so. It's about having a device that allows you to watch videos, browse the internet or play games when you are bored and stuck somewhere. It's about having all of these things in one with the phone and you're judging these devices based completely on the types of people that use them to be a dickish camwhore. Smartphones are smartphones less because of the fact that they do all of these things and more because they, quite literally, are one of the smartest ideas ever thought up - equipping everyone with a portable computer that has an internet connection, be it iPhone, Android, Windows Phone, etc.


The problem here is that we've all used this opiate (to make an analogy), so to all of you though that seem so content with the idea of modern technology not being available - I'd like to see you try it. I'd like you to move somewhere you have no access to any of this. I'd like to hold you to your words, and had I the ability to observe I would roll my eyes watching you after the first week, when the feeling of isolation from the world beyond your city grows tiresome. After the first month, where you want to do something online or look up full directions while driving but can't and the feeling of want for something that was taken away from you manifests. After six months, when you come crawling back to reality. Maybe some of you will be fine, I don't know, but I'm willing to bet my life that at least 75% of you will say "fuck this" at some point.


Of course going out and camping without the internet or smartphones for a weekend is fun. That's different than wanting to make a 70's version of The Village a reality.

(lots of text)

Obviously the last part was addressing many in the thread who felt the need for a "digital detox". I never said you didn't want to use the internet specifically, when I was addressing you it was about the smartphones because the way you're looking at them is ridiculous.

I never said keep our connection to nature to just camping weekends. Do you not understand that technology and nature can be of symbiotic relationship?

If you don't like people using their iPads then here's an idea - don't use one. You don't need to call things "wacky" because some people choose to do things with them you don't care for.

And if you really don't understand why smartphones are an incredible, extremely smart invention then I don't know what to say. You've missed the point of them entirely.

You have almost ALL INFORMATION KNOWN TO MAN available to you AT ANY TIME. How is that not a smart thing?

And no, sorry, the opposite is not true. You understand what reality means, correct? You understand that IS the reality of this world today? People use smartphones everywhere. That's reality...if one chooses to "outsource their brain to the internet", that's their fault, not the smart phone's fault. Same with one becoming "content with the internet as a fundamental source of entertainment" and overlooking problems occurring in the world. If you want to blame something, blame people, don't blame the devices. This is some more cart before the horse nonsense.

zeitgeist wrote:don't have much to add myself beyond this post. nice work.

Well then it looks like we are indeed alone here, Nicole.

IanRedpoint wrote:I certainly don't want to relive the '70s but I do like to be able to regularly go offline and relate to the world around me in a more organic analogue way. For example, it feels mentally healthy for me to look up a map or route online and then try to remember it and drive to that place without a SatNav or printout to guide me. It's keeping the neural pathways that process spatial awareness and abstraction stimulated. I like discovering things rather than being told them.

That's good. I frequently do the same, often biking. I like to go out hiking with my cousin and friends when I can. I love nature, but I have no problem bringing my PMP for music and my smartphone with me in case I need it. It's there for when you need it, it's not there to be the thing you do all the time. This is what I think people have a hard time understanding.

Poor Rodeh, always getting in internet fights

Betterthanyourkids wrote:Poor Rodeh, always getting in internet fights

This is tame, man. We're just having a discussion.

And for the 90th time on this board, it's Rodheh.

Rodheh wrote:And for the 90th time on this board, it's Rodheh.

I still pronounce it ro-day. It works with the spelling but is that correct?

Oh yeah, ipads, computers, tee vee lookity boxes and all that jazz.

Julian Candy wrote:

Rodheh wrote:And for the 90th time on this board, it's Rodheh.

I still pronounce it ro-day. It works with the spelling but is that correct?

Oh yeah, ipads, computers, tee vee lookity boxes and all that jazz.

It's pronounced literally "rod heh" but honestly I never use this name for anything anymore and had I the ability to change my username I would just change it to my actual name, which is Jonse. Pronounce it however you want though, doesn't bother me. Just seems odd how many times people have seemed to miss the 'h' after the 'd'.

do you think I've missed your point because I'm not in agreement about smart phones being one of the "smartest ideas ever thought up"? of course having a cellphone with internet is a "smart thing" but it was sort of an obvious invention and there isn't anything groundbreaking about it. People knew they'd be produced years before they ever were.

it's all good Rodheh but i think you're still missing my point.

if the potentiality of nature and technology having a symbiotic relationship in this world is enough for you to be okay then that's fine i guess.

but in reality,
(in our world, at the moment)
the relationship between nature and technology is not even close to being symbiotic. symbiotic relationships are mutually beneficial.

do the math.


we have different understandings of what reality means. i am not going to go through my life defining reality as what "everyone is doing" or what the overall culture decides to be the 'norm'.

and of course it's the people's fault. but it isn't that simple. this outsourcing one's brain to the internet happens unconsciously . it's the kind of thing were not aware of because of how ubiquitous the use of these devices are... i can go a day without being aware of it and only feel it later.

the smartest invention ever made is going to be whoever can figure out how to make economics function in congruence with ecology without being stupidly fought against.

saurus wrote:Interesting discussion. I can't help but feel biased to d e n's argument though,as he used the word homie.

Haha I thought the same thing.

But yeah, I have a lot of thoughts about this. I lived off the grid for awhile and I probably will again someday. At the same time I don't completely eschew modern conveniences and especially the way people all over the world can communicate so easily now.

But then I go through phases where I just sort of unplug, and that's cool too.

I feel very split on the issue. When I was living in the mountains of north carolina there were times when I missed the city so bad. Just like the urban decay and the whole city vibe. Then of course I come back and now all I can think about is my little cabin in the woods and swimming holes and just all that country living stuff.

I wish I could have both conveniently.

d e n wrote:it's all good Rodheh but i think you're still missing my point.

No, I just disagree with your point. That is all.