____twoism

Hey, guys.
I've really been debating something lately about BoC and torrents.
First off, I kind of messed up my listening experience of BoC's music years ago, as I used to download a bunch of torrents back then...that's how I first listened to their music. Only now, over the past year, I've been purchasing what I can of their material.
The keyword is "can." I've discovered "Boc Maxima" on thepiratebay, and it's had me thinking. Are these unreleased albums okay to download, if I'm unable to actually purchase them? Is it morally right? Is it legal, also?

I'm sure this has been discussed before. But thanks for any input you all can give.

Legally, since there is no real copyright on it, it's not a problem. Morally, that's up to you. BoC's official Youtube channel has linked to several fan videos that utilize the Old Tunes/Maxima material, so they are blessing it in a way. I'm sure they would love to get paid if and when they reissue the material down the road. I know I will pony up for it.

It's shitty how they got released and all, no doubt. But we've all heard em at this point, I don't think there's anything to be gained by not listening out of some moral ideal although the thought is nice.

Edited to add: I will be first in line to buy them when/if they're ever released. That's less out of moral obligation (partly though) and more just because I really want them in higher quality.

Opothecary wrote:Legally, since there is no real copyright on it, it's not a problem.

This might be the case in the USA, but IIRC in Australia you don't have to claim copyright - the mere act of creating the work gives rise to copyright. At a guess, given that the Australian legal system is based on the UK's, I'd say that in the UK it is also copyrighted automatically.

I'd say that in many jurisdictions it is definitely therefore illegal, but as you say, the tacit approval of many fan vids of this material might give you some moral justification. Then again, I thought I read somewhere that they were unhappy that the early material (R35, AFOT etc) had leaked because it wasn't in a quality that they were happy with and the tapes were never intended for distribution beyond friends and family.

Even if they came out today and said "please don't listen to these" I don't think I'd be able to comply, I don't know if I can live in a world without old tunes.

Maybe if I ritually scourged myself afterwards it would restore psychic balance. I'd like to think they've made peace with us having them at this point though, but it's understandable for an artist to be upset when their work goes beyond their control like that.

Capt Kittinger wrote:

Opothecary wrote:Legally, since there is no real copyright on it, it's not a problem.

i know both old tunes are copyrighted, it's in large friendly letters on the label
leads me to believe boc maxima is too
but i have no qualms about torrenting them

its not a moral issue. it would be a sin for anyone to be deprived from hearing Whitewater.

The band has blessed the downloading of Old Tunes and other extant unreleased material, but only through a BBS while using a 14.4k modem. Otherwise it's not retro enough.

i think if they had wanted us to hear it, they would've released it to the public
but then on the other hand, it's out there and they know it, and if they're not going to offer a place whereby i give them my money in exchange for it, i see no problem with torrenting it.
what else can you do.

It's fine man.

Impossible Geometry wrote:its not a moral issue. it would be a sin for anyone to be deprived from hearing Whitewater.

This.

If we're talking about morality, we could write essays on intellectual property, trying to put a monetary value on digital media, and the idea of having ownership over sound.

Yeah whatever, dont get yourself in a state of moral flux over it. Pay for what you can, download what you can't.

Thing is maxima is a bit pants in my opinion. The official releases combine to create a far more coherent body of work.

rainier wrote:Even if they came out today and said "please don't listen to these" I don't think I'd be able to comply, I don't know if I can live in a world without old tunes.

This exactly

And hey, props for spending money tracking down legal copies of music you've been listening to for years. If you're gonna download stuff to discover it, its good to "pay your dues" down the line.

I very rarely pirate or torrent anything, I generally just don't like doing it. But in the case of Boards' old material, it's one of the times where I feel no shame or moral decision in downloading and listening to the material. For one, there's no 'correct' way to go about hearing them, they're not for sale and they're not publicly available. Secondly, they're unreleased pieces of work by my favourite artist. The cool factor of that alone almost makes it seem like a crime to not own them!!

Like most others here, I'd happily pay for them if they were ever properly released, but not before the alleged albums which I'll forever be eager to hear. Old Tunes vol. 1... is quite weak in comparison to the other editions to me. I could live without it bar a couple of tracks.

Capt Kittinger wrote:

Impossible Geometry wrote:its not a moral issue. it would be a sin for anyone to be deprived from hearing Whitewater.

This.

thisthisthisthisthisssss

This seems like a good thread to casually state that I recently lost my copies of the live sets...

I sure do miss them...sigh

Capt Kittinger wrote: Then again, I thought I read somewhere that they were unhappy that the early material (R35, AFOT etc) had leaked because it wasn't in a quality that they were happy with and the tapes were never intended for distribution beyond friends and family.

My view is that they were learning their trade while making the old tunes. Some of this was reworked to a greater or lesser degree and officially released. Some they thought was not good enough - whether this is not good enough melodies or beats or recording quality will vary track by track. And some may not have fit into the overall feel of the early albums and EPs.

If they do an official release then there would be a fair amount of effort in remaking this to the standard they would want to release under their name - it would be different from what is currently circulating. For my part I would love to hear something that covered unreleased material all the way through their career, not just the old tapes as we know them.

I wasn't sure if the legality would come into question. If a copyrighted work is "unavailable," it seems like that work lends itself to being accessed in some other way if it can't be found for purchase. However, I DID recently stumble upon an ebay entry of A Few Old Tunes (vol. 1 & 2) on cassette for £999/$1500. ...Couldn't quite follow through.

Morally, I've been feeling okay with the idea. Still stumped on the issue of whether the brothers wanted people other than their family/friends to hear those first releases. Almost slightly reminds me of the TH listening party at Lake Dolores, where they requested only the first three tracks to be recorded.

Nonetheless, torrents have become an occasional thing for me, if I'm curious about an album (not so much, since Spotify) and am considering purchasing it. And, if Maxima and A Few Old Tunes ever get a proper release...I'm definitely going to go for it.

Sorry for the late reply, but thanks again for all the feedback. Pretty much the most helpful board ever!