____twoism

I know there are a few Scottish Scottish-based posters here, so thought I'd see what thoughts were here on the independence issue.

For those outside the UK who may not be aware, there is going to be a vote in Scotland next Sept about whether we want to be independent nation from the UK (again, for those who aren't aware, the UK is made up of 4 separate "countries" which have varying degrees of autonomy in terms of spending etc). Currently, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland have their own assemblies or parliament, but are still governed centrally from London.

I was always fully in favour of remaining part of the UK (for background; for those who don't know I'm not Scottish - I moved here in 2005), for several reasons:

The UK is still a relatively big player on the world stage.

Our laws and system of government aren't perfect, but could be a lot worse.

I'm generally not in favour of nationalism of any kind - generally we need fewer borders,not more.

The pro-independence lobby seems undecided on a lot of issues (UN/NATO membership, currency, retaining the queen as head of state) - I don't like the idea of cherry-picking what we will or won't retain. Eg, if Scotland votes for independence, but still decides to keep the £ as currency, that means we'd still be reliant on the UK's economic policy for the strength of ours.

BUT....

I've recently started to think it might not be a bad thing. Yes, there are a LOT of uncertainties, but the opportunities for a new start are quite tempting -

Scotland is traditionally and generally much more liberal/left leaning than much of England, and I'm currently seeing the UK lurch a lot further to the right, which is making me VERY uneasy. So the prospect of living in a new little socialist country is pretty appealing right now. Of course, the other side of that coin is that if we do gain independence, the rest of the UK effectively becomes a fundamentally more right wing country by default; which would impact my family who still live in England.

As it stands, the Scottish parliament has devolved spending power, which it does use in a socially progressive way (free prescriptions & university education etc), so I'd ideally like Scotland to remain part of the UK, but with more autonomy. But that's not an option.

What do others think?

Well as someone who has voted in such an event here in Québec, to secede from Canada, I can relate to your position and point of view. It's a hotly debated idea, everywhere it happens, be it Catalonia, Scotland or Québec.

Each nation, has a right to self rule and laws, customs, etc. That is what defines a nation, a body of people with common beliefs. Here in Canada, the ROC (Rest of Canada) is much more right leaning, conservative, church-hugging pro-lifer than Québec is (much more left leaning and environmentally inclined than the rest of the country) and there's also the fact that there's a language difference to make things even more clear.

In the 1995 Referendum the question was clear, the plan was ready, yet it didn't pass (49,42 % for YES and / 50,58 % for NO) by a minuscule margin.

the ROC swore that things would change, that the provinces would get more rights, more competency in their various fields etc.

However, here we are in 2013, the issue is still not resolved, and the country is more divided than ever.

No, getting your own country isn't a panacea that will resolve all issues, there will still be social unbalance, poverty, etc.

HOWEVER, it will be decided by the people of Scotland, and not by some lawmakers in the UK.

The Czech Republic and Slovakia are doing better apart than together, same with Finland, and other countries, so it's not a dive into a hellhole.

The UK will still need Scotland, Scotland will still need the UK, so not much will change there, but you will be able to make your laws, have your own local issues taken care of instead of diluted into something larger for the greater good, which leaves often people in the dark.

So those are my thoughts, of course I know it's not a popular subject here, separatists are usually scorned for their views, but I don't care, sooner or later it will happen, I would just have preferred to be part of building it than being part of leading to it

insert joke about fruit machines

I very much want independence. Check out National Collective on Facebook, where Scotlands artists and creative community are putting out very positive and well thought out arguments.

I think tomorrows harvest could be good in Scotland.

Check out this picture I took this evening in Glasgow on my way home.

^ aye, I'm following National Collective on Twitter.

I can see the real appeal from the perspective of national identity, but I don't have that myself - I don't really have that sense of national identity - I'm not Scottish, I'm English, but I don't really feel "English" and I certainly don't identify with the brand of English portrayed by the Yes voices - I'm from the north east and feel culturally closer to Glasgow or Belfast than London. Apparently I've also got a bit of gypsy blood in the mix, which might explain my lack of national identity.

I honestly think if I was asked pre-2010 general election where I stood on independence, I'd be in no doubt, I'd be No. But right now, I've seen the UK change so much in the last 3 years into a country run in a way I'm not happy with and turning into a country I really don't like; maybe this would be a good opportunity?

A_Northern_Soul wrote:I'm not Scottish, I'm English, but I don't really feel "English"

YER A GEORDIE HINNY MAN, A GEORDIE AND DIVVINT YE FORGET IT!!

Geordie > English

^ well, indeed.

In an ideal world I'd also be voting to establish "The People's Socialist Republic of The North East". That would be a definite Yes.

Little known fact - a wee village called Chopwell near Newcastle once declared itself independent from the UK. didn't work out, but it is still referred to as "Little Moscow" at times.

What all are you, English, Scottish, British? It's so confusing looking from the outside. UK, but still Scotland, sometimes not mentioning the UK, sometimes mentioning only the UK.

If Scotland went independent I'd have to re-tag my music library for all Scottish bands. I've put them all under "United Kingdom".

there's scottish music outside of BoC?

Basefree wrote:What all are you, English, Scottish, British? It's so confusing looking from the outside. UK, but still Scotland, sometimes not mentioning the UK, sometimes mentioning only the UK.

If Scotland went independent I'd have to re-tag my music library for all Scottish bands. I've put them all under "United Kingdom".

I use to feel the same way as you bro. Then I watched this: The Difference between the United Kingdom, Great Britain and England Explained



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There's the legal answer to that question and then the question of the views and attitudes of those living within the United Kingdom, England, Scottish, Wales and Northern Ireland.

As a very rough rule of thumb, the further you get from London, the less British people tend to feel. However, there are notable exceptions. For example, if you suggested that people in certain parts of Belfast weren't British you could get into some serious trouble

Having been to Scotland many, many times, there is a definite disconnect to London and it does feel like a different country. Many of the arguments being made against independence seem to come predominantly from the Tory party who haven't exactly been Scotland's greatest ally over the years. However, I expect the referendum will be very close.

I come from Catalonia and my view on this is that while it's obvious that Catalonia has a culture of its own, statehood would be a bit irrelevant. I'm definitely against the unity of Spain, but I'm sort of against a Catalan Republic as well. I'm for whatever would bring us a socialist Barcelona Commune (doing away with the Mexican hats, the tapas bars and the flamenco places would be nice as well, but not a necessity, heh heh - you see how devoid of actual political content this whole business is?)

On the other hand, the central government is becoming increasingly hostile - every now and then they try to come up with ways of chipping away at the official status of the Catalan language, which is a shame because even in this big city it's pretty widely spoken, understood and used. They also try to limit the effectivity and extent of devolved powers which everyone had taken for granted for like 30 years...

I guess the political consequences of an independent Scotland are clearer and more immediate.

(by the way, in Spain it would be unthinkable to have such a calm debate on this issue, and especially to have someone from the Spanish proper area admitting to independence being even a possibility, or to Catalonia even being a nation...)

Thanks Mono, interesting to get a Catalan perspective as I think there of a lot of compar

[idiot]

.... comparisons between the 2 countries. The debate here hasn't always been sensible - there's been a lot of very silly rhetoric on both sides.

I never thought I'd be torn on the issue, o really am.

First things first - it's a definite yes from me, and I think it is probably a definite yes for all my friends. We had many discussions about this, and read a lot of literature, and it became quite apparent that it is basically the only viable choice for this country to move forward.

In fact, it should be clear to any person from the outside considering the Conservative party is pouring so mucn money into the "Better Together" campaign, that it is not really a good thing for Scotland. There was a telling moment when David Cameron made a comment along the lines saying they had already "won" the independence debate. If the conservatives consider a no vote in a country which consistently votes almost unanimously against them a win, then it's -obvious- there is something wrong!

mono wrote:I come from Catalonia and my view on this is that while it's obvious that Catalonia has a culture of its own, statehood would be a bit irrelevant. I'm definitely against the unity of Spain, but I'm sort of against a Catalan Republic as well. I'm for whatever would bring us a socialist Barcelona Commune (doing away with the Mexican hats, the tapas bars and the flamenco places would be nice as well, but not a necessity, heh heh - you see how devoid of actual political content this whole business is?) On the other hand, the central government is becoming increasingly hostile - every now and then they try to come up with ways of chipping away at the official status of the Catalan language, which is a shame because even in this big city it's pretty widely spoken, understood and used. They also try to limit the effectivity and extent of devolved powers which everyone had taken for granted for like 30 years... I guess the political consequences of an independent Scotland are clearer and more immediate.

Yes, for sure. If we were to discount the votes from Scotland from the last 100 years of elections the result would have remained the same. Every single person in Scotland could violently protest against a political issue and the Westminster government would have basically no inclination to listen, because even if they all voted oppositely next time, it would not, statistically speaking, be likely to change the outcome of the election. Scottish independence is not about national identity or even about being displeased particularly with the party which is currently in control of the UK - it is about gaining, essentially for the first time, some form of political representation in a major government. We cannot trust a government who campaigns extensively against representation to make decisions which are good for us.

As for a few specific points in this thread :
- Picking and choosing unions
It is in our interest to leave the political union quite clearly, but it might be less clear why it is also in our interest to leave the currency union too... Scotland owns its 6% of the national bank - if it were to give that up it would also be giving up its 6% of the national debt. We would have a clean sheet. However, it's too much of a risk and that's why i think most people would vote not to leave that union. George Osborne on the other hand is giving it this "what if i don't let you continue to use sterling?" which is just fucking stupid - for a start, it is nowhere near his choice, and secondly that would be an extra 4.2% of national debt for him to worry about.
- Fewer borders, not more
You are right, and most Scottish people will agree with you that immigration and emigration are important parts of this country's national identity. We have expats around the world and for there to be less opportunities for Scottish people to leave the country would definitely be a bad thing. Furthermore we have a very diverse range of nationalities living in the country at the moment, and it'd be great to keep it that way. Unfortunately the UK government at Westminster are fucking desperate to leave the EU and kick out anyone with a vaguely darker-than-irish skintone, and I don't think many people who I speak to in Scotland would agree with that policy. So by becoming an independent country we will be able to stay in the EU (Don't believe the hype, the EU have basically said "yeah of course we would" and would be shitbrained not to let us in with all this oil and whisky.) and hopefully have "free-er" borders than England/rUK.

One other thing - its not about party politics. This isn't a vote against conservatives or a vote for alex salmond to run the country. Its a vote for a new government to be formed and to properly and representationally look after the country!

^ I think that is a fundamental problem with the debate at the moment. A lot of Yes campaigners are framing a No vote as a vote for a Conservative Govt, while a lot of No campaigning points to the potential of Salmond as a head of state.

When in actual fact the vote is about MUCH more than current personalities.

What I haven't seen much of from the Yes contingent is how they intend to manage the split and what will be put in place post-split in terms of plans for running the country. Sure the SNP have their policies - many of which I agree with, but post independence, the SNP will effectively have served their purpose. Who else will stand to form an opposition, and what are they offering? That's assuming post-split Scotland will function as a parliamentary democracy!

That's the information I'm missing which might impact my vote.

Great posts though, cheers.

I'm fascinated by this to be honest. For example, A_Northern_Soul, I don't think I'm sharing any great secret if I reveal you're not Scottish (correct?) but from your posts you get to vote. Any idea on whether you'd be able to take up a Scottish passport/nationality should the Yes vote win out??

Ha! No - it's not a secret, I "outed" myself as English earlier in the thread. I do get to vote (unlike Scots who aren't living here at the moment). I'm not sure about the passport/nationality issue - not sure whether this has been decided yet.

I am genuinely torn at the moment. I'm surprised how little coverage it is getting in the "British" press/media - any debate seems to be restricted to the Scottish press and TV.

Mexicola - interested to hear your take on the issue. A lot of the Yes electioneering plays on the cultural difference between Scotland and "England"; when you and I both know the "England" portrayed as being the country which holds all the political power is VERY different to the England we grew up in.