____twoism

Ok a few things before we start this:

1 Spirituality is open and flexible in this context. This thread is inviting Christians, Agnostics, Muslims, Buddhists, etc anyone of spiritual/religious background to come together and discuss connection and their perspectives on the music.

2 If you are here to debate, I encourage you to go elsewhere. This thread is intended for people WHO ARE CONSIDERED RELIGIOUS. WHO BELIEVE IN THEIR GOD. We do not need a 14 paragraph essay on why you disagree with this belief. Speculative questioning is fine as long as it stays polite and professional. If you cannot help yourself, go to ‘is boc satanic in your view?’ instead.

3 THIS THREAD IS NOT ASKING IF BOC IS RELIGIOUS. IT IS ASKING IF THEY ARE SPIRITUAL AND WHAT MAKES YOU THINK SO.

Thank you.

To me, the integration of religious elements, math, science, memories, etc all give me a vibe that they at least think there could be a creator or universal force which is magnitudes of power beyond our comprehension. There is definitely an element of spirituality, or at least the unexplainable and paranormal.

I think they're spiritual, and believe in some form of 'higher power,' (just a hunch), just not in organized religion.

Makes me think of Stephen King, although until someone asks the brothers directly we won't know for sure:

https://www.godreports.com/2013/06/step ... nt-design/

I am beginning to believe that Inferno is an encouragement to inter-faith dialogue.
We are in a “Holy War” after all

I think, like a lot of people that have experimented with hallucinogens, that they understand there is a mechanism behind the universe, which can be reduced to mathematics. I wouldn't imagine they would claim to know either way if those mathematics had a designer. But the very act of taking hallucinogens is spiritual, you are literally connecting with the universe in a way that is very difficult without them, you feel part of a cosmic consciousness that is undeniably real in the moment. I'll wager that notion of the universe being an interconnected living organism, whilst rejecting any kind of narrow minded, monotheistic dogma is what drives a lot of their music.

Ha, I see some folks here couldn’t resist taking shots at religious folks despite your plea, steeldancer-x.

I’d like to chime in as someone who was once agnostic, spiritual, and an occultist for many years. Later, beyond the reasoning of those around me, and especially myself, I converted to Catholicism in my 40s. I’m also someone who has loved BoC’s music since first purchasing MHRTC back in ’98 or ’99. Back then, I didn’t know much about them before buying the record, but it was Warp, and I was big into Warp Records at the time (thanks, Basscadet EP, for starting it all). However, BoC blew me away immediately more than anyone else, and have continued to do so with every release. TH still remains my favourite.

Those are just small disclaimers to state that I am religious, yet also an admirer of their music, and have pondered the question on their spiritual stance quite often. The use of Branch Davidian samples and the ‘satanic panic’ nostalgia woven throughout those early releases seems to be more of an aesthetic, interesting artistic colouring. Much like the goths of the Batcave scene in London, while not Christian, would apply Christian imagery to their artwork. Or heavy metal bands that weren’t practicing satanists using satanic imagery.

However, I would say on Inferno, to me at least, it seems spiritually…all over the place, perhaps. Or they’re searching. Or they aren’t at all. They've thrown everything into the mix and it’s hard to get a read on their spirituality. Though I think it’s safe to say they aren’t actually religious, or at least they’ve said as much in the press around the time of Geogaddi. Whether or not that has changed, I can’t say, but from my listening to this new record and form my previous days of esoteric dabbling, I can hear the nods to everything from Hinduism, Hare Krishna, general Christian biblical references, mega-church evangelists, Catholic liturgy, Thelema, and also what I assume is a nod to the Process Church cult (have an interesting side-story about that one when I met a member of Skinny Puppy once, but this post has gone on long enough) I’m sure there’s a lot more I’m missing.

It’s probably safer for them to play it that way. Likely, listeners will make their own suppositions on the subject, even if it means imposing their own beliefs on BoC’s artwork. And that’s fine. I think ultimately, spirituality, the unseen, and the supernatural are of great interest to them and it inspires their artwork, and this certianly can be so without them adhering to any specific beliefs.

And this is coming from a narrow-minded monotheist who believes in a vindictive sky-god, or whatever supposition people want to make there as well.

Yeah, sorry I feel bad for saying narrow minded now, but I hope people understand what I mean. Once you get involved with monotheism, the dogma tends to lead to ideological thinking is what I meant.

My take...
(disclaimer, I have been labeled an agressive atheist before.)

To me, and this is just an opinion based on their interviews and body of work.

What I see is a context, a visual and work that explores with a certain fascination the concepts of what spirituality and religion, cults and all that gravitates into that area.

Interest, exploration and fascination does not mean that they are themselves spiritual. If anything, the fact that it is a theme that is recurrent to them seems to indicate in my opinion their fascination with something they might see as how does the human psyche and brain works at the deeper levels. I would say that if anything, that interest might be fueled by their own personal beliefs. An exploration into what makes us humans and how does the believing brain work considering that we are so badly equipped to face the reality that is around us (our fives senses are woefully limited, our brain has all sorts of safeguards, pattern recognition inherited from deep past, etc).

I cannot say for sure if Mike and Marcus are aligned in their thoughts or beliefs in this. I find that Inferno has vibes of conflict within it and the innuendo of spirituality is pervasive through it. To me, it raises question of what is going on within the BoC unit.

In My view, as per the original question, I believe that they are trying to find what makes humans fascinated with the intangible, especially when it comes to a belief in superior existence, or even to extra-terrestrial life, the universe as a greater whole.

I am obviously tainted in my observations having spent the best of my life exploring the why people gravitate to religions, cults, paganism, etc. but I would say the blokes are clearly in the camp of how come this plethora of spiritual avenues exists and what makes them so convincing and addictive to those who embrace them.

i.e. I believe they have a spiritual life but I would tag it as more from an understanding it than living it.

Atheists can have a spiritual life, just not something that caters to discover the deeper meaning in all things, humility, and inspiration in the natural world, the cosmos, and scientific discoveries.

I would tag them as Agnostic if I had to provide a definite label.

As far as a read on their own personal spiritual beliefs, I honestly have no idea. The best I've got is that interview where they said... what was it... they're not religious? I think? Which doesn't preclude being spiritual of course. Bottom line I have *no* idea.

As far as their MUSIC goes, if I were to hazard my own personal guess at what it has to say about spirituality, it's probably along the lines of "This is a topic we're personally fascinated by, and we recognize how integral these questions and pursuits are to just simply being human". Sure there are plenty of people who would self identify as not spiritual at all, but by the numbers, most humans would. It's clearly something that affects most of us in some important way, and I think that much like the human drive to create artwork, while not *universal* or *required* to be human, it's clearly coded deep, deep inside of our species 'cause across thousands and thousands and thousands of years we just keep on doing it, over and over, no matter the civilization or system we live under.

For context, I was raised very Christian, I lost my faith in my teens and explored several different spiritual leanings since then. Hard-line atheist, Taoist, secular Satanist, and nowadays I'd call myself sort of an agnostic. I once heard the phrase "Hopeful agnostic" and that describes me best. Honestly, if I could do whatever mental gymnastics it would take to believe in Lutheranism again, I'd do it in a heartbeat. I was very fulfilled and happy when I believed.

It's difficult for me to believe in a full fledged concept of God given how often the concept has been perverted to fit the selfish desires of man, but I do believe in the concept of "Light and Darkness", and I think BoC's music conveys that very well in Geogaddi. The first half being the darkness within the light, whilst the second half is the light within the darkness.

Personal context: Religion was never really a forefront in my household growing up. My dad's a staunch conservative, but never pushed any religious ideas. My older sister went to catholic middle/high school, but I didn't. Neither of us were baptized, but our younger half-sister was. We were all very emotionally disconnected, except me and my older sister. I've just been making up the concepts as I go.

Or just what Turq said, most of my thoughts are better said by other people anyway.

absolute nothingness

If math serves, than it is also absolute everything

Hi Steeldancer :p Totally agree, BoC’s work encourages us to inter-faith dialogue.
We’re in a Holy War !!!
(I gone off topic with this message, as usual. If you'd rather delete it, no problem, and if you can't do it, just let me know and I'll take care of it! Cheers )

Hi Wildfire ! I agree with you…
I tryed mushrooms in january last year, it was sensationnal. Since, I baught a McKennai grow kit, and had about 10 experiences.
This products open doors, and it can also cloose them & twist your mind, so : BE CAREFUL, be with people you trust, and try it only if you feel the appeal to (I say that for people reading this).

But it's not the end goal either. For example, I met a guy online who told in his video, "If you haven't done at least 100 trips, you don't know what you're talking about." I'm afraid this person is stuck in their own loop. Mushrooms only open doors; and there's no point in spending your time opening doors, you have to go further. So: entheogenic substances are not an end in themselves.

And I understood your "narrow-mindedness." It's no coincidence that "religiosity" has collapsed since the 20th century; it's largely due to our tendency to make our beliefs into absolute certainties (but I'll come back to that in this comment).
And that's truly closed-mindedness. And it doesn't just come from religious people, far from it... ( ).



Hi Estel! Your journey is great! At least you've experienced different points of view, which helps you put your beliefs into perspective and be less judgmental, unlike those "who know best" (religious fanatics, scientists, etc.).

And I agree with you, spirituality is at the very least a major source of inspiration for BoC, even though I think it goes much deeper than that.


Hi Magrathea! I have a question for you: you said, "I am obviously tainted in my observations having spent the best of my life exploring why people gravitate to religions, cults, paganism, etc.," but if I understand correctly, you don't believe in religion or spirituality at all, is that right?
So, if you don't mind me asking: why did you spend all this time observing people who gravitate towards faith? Was it out of a genuine desire to understand, or was it more of a defense mechanism, like: "I observe these poor people who believe in Santa Claus, and it reinforces my convictions: none of that exists"?

(No judgment here, these are genuine questions, and I think it's interesting to be able to determine our true intentions when we have moments/whims like this).

And when you say, "Atheists can have a spiritual life," I completely agree, and that's precisely the point to understand: the difference between spirituality and religion. Religion offers keys to spirituality, but its main purpose is to "connect people and guide them according to morality," to create communities, in short... "to manipulate people and make them docile while offering them spiritual keys to evolve in the right way and be relatively happy" So, there's good and bad... (that's my opinion anyway).


Now, regarding BoC, to put it very simply, I'm convinced they are "beyond" spirituality. For me, they are beings who have had transcendent experiences within a specific framework (Freemasonry). So, I believe the Sandison brothers are among the rare few on this world who "know God through direct experience" (Gnosis).

And concerning the question raised by this post… I'd like to share my thoughts.
In my view, it's obvious that reality is both material and spiritual. We only see the visible side of things, but there's "the other side." We ourselves are physical bodies, but something extraordinary happens in each of us, something that science cannot even study properly: consciousness.

And with the evolution of our sciences, particularly Quantum Mechanics… which helps us understand that time and space are not fundamental, and that everything is unified at the root (at least, that remains only an interpretation; Quantum Mechanics is so counterintuitive, so revolutionary, that it takes us a century to truly integrate what it reveals), then spirituality becomes self-evident. Not in a religious way, just in the "we're all One at the root" kind of way.

But: we live in a world where there are many "dark" people at the top. Hence all the suffering we are experiencing right now: wars, conspiracies, mass manipulation guiding us toward hatred and depression, environmental destruction, trickle-down economics, etc.
All of this stems from our collective irresponsibility; and since we are irresponsible, we're manipulated so we are led by people who are clearly leading us straight into disaster.

And this is my point: while the evolution of science (especially since the Enlightenment) plus the weakening of the Church (due to all its horrors and the "religious dogmas" debunked by science etc) has naturally allowed us to emancipate ourselves from religious dogma ("narrow-minded"), there is also a desire on the part of our leaders to lead us toward atheism and scientism.

In other words: if it is so difficult today to speak calmly about spirituality, it is not only because of all the nonsense and horrors coming from religious figures, but also because of the tons of social engineering deployed against us, which aims to turn us into faithless, lawless, lost, depressed, hateful atheists, etc. (And they also manipulates people to make then religious fanatics... there's indoctrination everywhere). And I didn't even talk about Vatican II.

And before anyone accuses me of conspiracy theorizing, take a look at the work of Edward Bernays, a century ago… Look at who his uncle and great-nephew were… Read the toast given by John Swinton (an influential journalist) in New York in 1880 at a dinner party with prominent journalists and businessmen… And think back to all the scandals we've witnessed, all those times when figures of authority said incredibly stupid things to get their way… In short, it's obvious: we live in a world full of manipulation, and if we've reached the point where it's become complicated to talk about spirituality, it's largely because of this, because of our dictators in suits who pretend to be divided when they're just trying to divide the people to better rule and swrew us over big time.


No? What do you think? And sorry for off-topic. Salut à vous ♥