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Gaza, 1000+ killed, and counting...

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 5:47 pm
by eppers
At least 220 Palestinians, including women and children, have been killed in an Israeli aerial bombardment on Hamas security installations.

Israel launched air attacks across the besieged Gaza Strip on Saturday, threatening that further operations would be carried out.

Emergency services said that at least 700 people had been wounded.

Witnesses reported heavy damage as at least 30 missiles were fired.

Ehud Barak, the Israeli defence minister, said that the operation would not be short.

"The operation will go on and be intensified as long as necessary," he said on Saturday.

An Israeli military spokesman added that any "Hamas target is a target".

As dusk fell, Israel continued to bomb the strip, firing on a metal foundry in the south.

Salam Fayyad, the Palestinian prime minister, condemned the attack and demanded an immediate cessation.

Hours after the Israeli assault, Gaza fighters fired home-made rockets into southern Israel, heeding calls by Hamas and other affiliated Palestinian groups to avenge the attacks, unprecedented in their scale.

One Israeli was killed in the rocket fire, medics said.

Taher al-Noono, a Hamas spokesman, described Israel's operation as a "massacre", adding: "However, our resolve cannot be dented and cannot be shaken. We will continue our struggle with absolute strength and steadfastness."

Islam Shahwan, a Hamas police spokesman, said a police graduation ceremony in Gaza City was struck by Israel. Among those killed was Tawfiq Jabber, the Gaza chief of police.

The Hamas-run interior ministry said all security compounds in the Strip had been destroyed.

Gaza is densely populated. Its 1.5 million residents area already experiencing shortages in medicine, power and basic supplies due to 18 months of an Israeli blockade.

'War crimes'

Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian president and leader of Fatah, condemned the "aggression" in Gaza.

Mousa Abu Morzouz, the deputy leader of Hamas, told Al Jazeera: "Until now the aggression didn't stop ... they are targeting all the police headquarters and offices.

"We will defend our people, we will retaliate against this aggression ... our military will retaliate."

Morzouz called on the world's most powerful nations to condemn the attacks: "Nobody in this world can accept what happened and the Israeli aggression ... [we expect] the international community to stand against this and say that it is not acceptable."

Mustafa Barghouthi, the former Palestinian information minister, said: "This is not an attack on the Hamas. It is an attack on the whole population and the free will of the people of Gaza."

He accused Israel of committing "war crimes" and demanded that Abbas and his government stop all relations with Israel.

'Only just beginning'

The Israel army released a statement saying "terrorist installations" were hit and that all Israeli pilots returned unharmed.

The operation against the Hamas is "only just beginning," Avi Benayahu, an Israeli military spokesman said.

The air raids follow the decision by the Israeli security cabinet to increase reprisals for cross-border rocket attacks against Israel, and the breakdown of a six-month-old Israel-Hamas truce earlier this month.

The ceasefire expired on December 19, with Hamas arguing that Israel had violated the truce by preventing vital food and medical supplies into the Strip.

Ayman Mohyeldin, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Gaza, said: "A series of explosions were heard over Gaza City.

"From where we are, there are at least seven different clouds of smoke from the strikes. We are seeing some casualties being evacuated in cars."

Egypt has opened the Rafah crossing with the Gaza Strip to receive injured people, Egyptian officials said. Ambulances have been sent to the crossing and two Egyptian hospitals emptied to take in the wounded.

Weakened security services

Mohyeldin said that Hamas, which rule the Gaza Strip, was being held responsible by Israel for any attacks from the territory into Israel, even if they are undertaken by other Palestinian factions.

Palestinian officials called on the international community to condemn the raids [AFP]
However, officials of the deposed government in Gaza which maintains law and order, while being Hamas member in the main, are separate from the group's military wing and other factions responsible for attacks into Israel.

"There is within Gaza a functioning ministry of interior that has security services, traffic control, emergency medical services," Mohyeldin reported.

"Those workers are seen as employees of the government in Gaza. So now that many of these installations have been targeted, it will have an immediate impact in terms of the law and order structure here in Gaza."

Jacky Rowland, Al Jazeera's correspondent in Jerusalem, said that Israel's decision to strike at this moment was down to Hamas withdrawing from the ceasefire and the intensified rocket fire coming from the Gaza Strip in recent days.

"In one day [in the past week] we saw 80 rockets ... which is a huge upsurge," she said.

Hamas won control of the Palestinian Legislative Council in elections in January 2005. The international community refused to accept a Hamas-led government, demanding that the faction recognise Israel and renounce violence. Economic sanctions by the EU and US followed.

Hamas took control of the Gaza Strip in June 2007 after bloody street battles against its rival, the Fatah movement.
that was yesterday...
today, the death toll is 364, increasing every few minutes

the policemen who were killed were basically 'policemen', dealing with traffic and such...


BBC:
Israel's air assault on Gaza is "the first in several stages" of operations aimed at ending militant rocket fire, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has said.

As bombing continued for a fourth day, another top official said Israel was ready for "long weeks of action".

Palestinian officials say more than 360 people have been killed since Saturday. Four Israelis have died in rocket fire.
and israel is 'defending' it's nation.. killing civilians and policemen..

just thought shedding some light on this matter is important, even on twoism.

cheers.

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:12 pm
by Mexicola
Been watching the news and was hoping to see you post about it man. They are talking about a third Intifada on the news.
Sad and scary times...

So glad to hear you are safe and well. Hope your family and friends are too.

Stay safe fella.

Re: Gaza, 364 dead, and counting...

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 6:50 pm
by turquoise70
eppers wrote:
just thought shedding some light on this matter is important, even on twoism.
It is. Please keep yourself and your loved ones safe Eppers, this shit is inhuman. The failure of governments to care about the loss of human life they cause is absolutely disgusting.

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:09 pm
by hexagon son
eppers, man. i hope you stay safe. what both hamas and israel are doing is wrong. the sooner we get religion out of politics, the better. both sides are killing innocent people.

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:29 pm
by observation
Good wishes to you eppers. I hope the trouble ends soon. Maybe Obama can bring a little influence to bear on the Israeli government, not that they listen to many people. I think they are just unleashing some fury now while Bush is still looking the other way and before the new US government is formed. It's sad. Stay safe mate. And keep us all informed, the news media is only half the story, we need to hear what people like you are experiencing.

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:22 pm
by A_Northern_Soul
hexagon son wrote: the sooner we get religion out of politics, the better. both sides are killing innocent people.
QFT

Stay safe mate.

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:26 pm
by Aesthetics
It's disgusting..

How save are you eppers? are you far away from the Strip?



I've seen a documentary about the Gaza Strip a few years ago and I can't really make up my mind about it. All I know is what makes this difficult is that the whole "die as a martyr" thing makes it difficult. Why and how did this ever crept into religion.

It's sad but the Gaza Strip equals war in my thoughts. As long as I can remember there have been wars going on in this district and I'm afraid this won't end soon.

Re: Gaza, 364 dead, and counting...

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:10 pm
by Magi
eppers wrote:
cheers.
Eppers, get out of there, life is short, you should enjoy, come to Europe!

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:04 pm
by eppers
Thanks for the kind comments..

I'm actually studying in Jordan right now, but the west bank (where i used to live, and where i go for vacations) is still safe, there have been bombings, and invasions, and so forth.. And it's weird to say that I've somehow gotten used to it at some point of my life.

And about the few peeps here who say both Hamas and Israel are doing something wrong. I disagree, as you read, hamas have killed no less than 5 israeli's, although I really dislike them, and the way they shove religion in politics, I strongly believe that the only thing they did wrong is giving israel a chance to attack gaza, but I also strongly believe that Israel was going to attack anyway, they always make up shit, and but they had it served on a plate this time..

Note that Israel started the 1st intifada by shamelessly killing Palestinians, and the 2nd one when PM ariel sharon tried to get into Al-Aqsa mosque (one of the holiest muslim places), and they're trying to do the same shit now.. nearly 400 Palestinians killed in a few nights..

And it's a shame that most of the world believes that Israel is the nation demanding peace and that the Palestinians aren't giving them a chance, what a shame.

Ignorance is definitely not a bliss..

cheers.

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:14 pm
by eppers
387 killed so far.

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:05 am
by Twoism-ist
I really wish Israel would chill the fuck out. God damn. I get a lot of crap because I tend to be mostly anti-Zionist(NOT anti-Semitic).

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:49 am
by hexagon son
i believe that both palestine and israel are both entitled to their sovereign countries, free from threat and intimidation. the situation is very difficult to gauge sometimes. things like this have been happening throughout history, the british empire, the spanish, the french, the portuguese, nowadays USA and china.

people need to remember, the common man controls none of these acts and can do nothing about them. i was one of 2,500,000 protesting in london for the no war in iraq gathering. and all of us didn't make one bit of difference. governments will do what they want to do. people like president bush critisize people like hugo chavez saying they are dictators, when in fact people like chavez are trying to make a difference in the world by helping the poor.

the world needs to start taking palestine more seriously and force israel to the table to negociate seriously. israel illegally occupies palestinian land with their civilian settlements. give to palestine what is palestine's and israel what is israels.

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:33 am
by eppers
hexagon son wrote:i believe that both palestine and israel are both entitled to their sovereign countries, free from threat and intimidation. the situation is very difficult to gauge sometimes. things like this have been happening throughout history, the british empire, the spanish, the french, the portuguese, nowadays USA and china.

people need to remember, the common man controls none of these acts and can do nothing about them. i was one of 2,500,000 protesting in london for the no war in iraq gathering. and all of us didn't make one bit of difference. governments will do what they want to do. people like president bush critisize people like hugo chavez saying they are dictators, when in fact people like chavez are trying to make a difference in the world by helping the poor.

the world needs to start taking palestine more seriously and force israel to the table to negociate seriously. israel illegally occupies palestinian land with their civilian settlements. give to palestine what is palestine's and israel what is israels.
I somewhat agree with a few things that you said, but there's nothing FOR israel to take, they declared their independence on palestinian land in 1948, I mean I'm originally from Yafa - Occupied Palestine and I only went their ONCE! in my entire life, I can't go there anymore, my grandfather got killed there fighting in 1948 when they tried kicking them out of the city, and eventually they kicked them out of the country..

and imagine, with all that in mind, I still want peace and I want to be able to go anywhere I want in Palestine.. But take someone else, unlike me, who's son, daughter, father, mother, got killed in any of the attacks on Palestine in the last 15 years or so, do you think they'd be able to co-exist peacefully with the Israeli's? I doubt they'd be able to just look at one in the eyes without having some ideas creeping up their minds...

So no, Israel doesn't have anything to take... Let's be real should we? Israel isn't gonna get out of Palestine and they're not going to immigrate out of it, so we need something real to work on... But the problem is getting wider and wider each time they do such inhumane things to the Palestinian people...

Zionism tried (and is trying) to kick us out since 1948, it's hard to make peace with a nation whose main ideology is to get rid of you in any possible way. and I just really wish for things to be stable in the sake of Palestinians who are getting killed daily..

Fuck Zionism,
and cheers.

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:46 am
by turquoise70
I'm sure as long as we keep segregating everyone in our world snugly into broad, collective Uses and Thems everything will end up just fine eventually.

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 8:53 am
by Mexicola
eppers wrote: And it's a shame that most of the world believes that Israel is the nation demanding peace and that the Palestinians aren't giving them a chance, what a shame.
I think you might be surprised at how many people over here see through Israeli rhetoric eppers. I can't talk about how the news is reported in the USA where I'm guessing networks like Fox will almost certainly be less than neutral (please correct me if I'm wrong US Twoismers!) but here in the UK both sides get a grilling on the news (even Sky which is probably the most right-wing channel over here) and certainly most of the reporting has been about Israeli aggression for some time. That's not to say that the Hamas rocket attacks are going unreported either mind you, and whether it's five people or five hundred people, defending your territory or naked terrorism, it's all comes down to killing and maiming (often innocent) people no matter which side of the fence you find yourself. I'm not judging, I can't imagine how awful it must be to live with that fear and hatred, but something has to give surely? Sadly nobody seems to want to.

As to who is to blame - I'm not even going to patronise you with my view on it. I have an opinion, but as I've never lived there or really know anyone directly involved my opinion counts for nothing. It's not MY family being attacked, so it's all too easy for people like me to say things like "just stop" without feeling the true horror of what is happening. All I will say is this. Here in the UK we had the IRA/UDF bombing the crap out of each other for years. The bitterness and hatred from both sides was deep, genuine and caused death and misery for years. Religion and territory was (is) at the heart of the conflict and regardless of who started what with who, the result was the same - men, women and children bombed, shot, interned, abducted, tortured, buildings destroyed, walls erected, lives broken and ruined for years. Your brother/father/mother/sister was killed by the other lot, so you went and killed somebody else's brother/father/mother/sister, and so it went, each side blaming the other until in the end both sides had real reasons to hate the other and frankly it didn't really matter who started it, only if it could be ended.

I don't know what the answer is - more intelligent, better informed and more respected people have tried and failed to resolve it. But I do know that unless both sides can be brave enough to just fucking stop, nothing will ever get any better. Sadly, I don't see that happening and given the line of Governement spokesmen I've seen from both sides over the past week you have to wonder where to leadership is going to come from. If all we have as Politicians are the likes of Benjamin Netanyahu then the situation can only get worse.

Obama? John Kerry? Somebody please... :cry:

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 11:39 am
by Korona 1969
eppers, I was thinking of you. :cry:

I find it hard to turn my emotions into words so I shall let Robert Fisk articulate so succinctly what I feel.

I have almost no hope that Obama will do anything of significance. He was one of many US politicians who refused to condemn Israel's killing of 1,000 Lebanese civilians in 2006 and during the recent election campaign continually spouted that line about supporting Israel's right to "self-defence". He has still also made no public comment about the Gaza bombings.

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:20 pm
by eppers
Thanks for the kind words.

Well the only thing that I can say is, you can't judge it until you've lived through it, and even I haven't lived through it like how Gazans are having it now..

a friend of mine called his relatives to ask how the situation was, they told him, when Israel stops a bombing round, we can't eat, we can't sleep, we can't do nothing, because we don't know what are they going to do next..

Imagine how shitty that feels, when silence becomes tension.

what a shitty world we're in.

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 1:09 pm
by Twoist
eppers wrote:Thanks for the kind words.

Well the only thing that I can say is, you can't judge it until you've lived through it, and even I haven't lived through it like how Gazans are having it now..

a friend of mine called his relatives to ask how the situation was, they told him, when Israel stops a bombing round, we can't eat, we can't sleep, we can't do nothing, because we don't know what are they going to do next..

Imagine how shitty that feels, when silence becomes tension.

what a shitty world we're in.
Eppers, I think it's nearly impossible to imagine what your friend's relatives are going through - but we should try our hardest to imagine it. So many of us (and I'd include myself here) live in sheltered, cossetted environments and don't see or understand enough of what goes on outside our own towns, let alone our national borders. To have an existence where basic survival is at such a premium on a daily basis, it shouldn't be so in this day and age. I've got my own [deeply negative] thoughts about Israel and their policies, but I have a good [Israeli] friend who is far more experienced in vocalising such things (from the same standpoint as me) - and she is far more qualified to speak about it all.

I hope you, your friend, his family, all the families have the quietest, safest new year that it's possible to have. Thoughts are definitely with you.

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:24 pm
by eppers
Twoist wrote:
eppers wrote:Thanks for the kind words.

Well the only thing that I can say is, you can't judge it until you've lived through it, and even I haven't lived through it like how Gazans are having it now..

a friend of mine called his relatives to ask how the situation was, they told him, when Israel stops a bombing round, we can't eat, we can't sleep, we can't do nothing, because we don't know what are they going to do next..

Imagine how shitty that feels, when silence becomes tension.

what a shitty world we're in.
Eppers, I think it's nearly impossible to imagine what your friend's relatives are going through - but we should try our hardest to imagine it. So many of us (and I'd include myself here) live in sheltered, cossetted environments and don't see or understand enough of what goes on outside our own towns, let alone our national borders. To have an existence where basic survival is at such a premium on a daily basis, it shouldn't be so in this day and age. I've got my own [deeply negative] thoughts about Israel and their policies, but I have a good [Israeli] friend who is far more experienced in vocalising such things (from the same standpoint as me) - and she is far more qualified to speak about it all.

I hope you, your friend, his family, all the families have the quietest, safest new year that it's possible to have. Thoughts are definitely with you.
Thank you

391 killed so far.

*394...




Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2008 7:41 pm
by hexagon son
i think regardless of all of the individual political stances are on the situation there, all our hopes and prayers are with you, your family, the innocent palestinian people, and yes, the innocent israeli people. those who are guilty of this bloodshed will, in the end, get what they deserve.

again eppers, stay safe.