Some of you might remember me from the last thread I made; I was having issues with inspiration and was in somewhat of a rut. I took your advice and it helped greatly!
Unfortunately I've stumbled upon a new problem....
I've been thinking of taking a music theory course and was wondering if it would really help. I find myself using the same chords in most tracks I produce and would like very much to change that. Anyone else ever deal with this? If so, are there any basic music theory guidelines I can follow to shake things up a little bit?
Thanks a lot.
Music Theory
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Synthestesia
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mdsmithson
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i find that letting the sound develop on its own, instead of forging it into something planned is essential to unlocking your creative flow.
let the mind know it wont be shamed for creating something the lingering elitest eye dislikes.
feel ok simply enjoying the creation process, dont focus too much on how 'good' it sounds.
'good' sounding music will come naturally from a comfortable process.
let the mind know it wont be shamed for creating something the lingering elitest eye dislikes.
feel ok simply enjoying the creation process, dont focus too much on how 'good' it sounds.
'good' sounding music will come naturally from a comfortable process.
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Twoism-ist
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im gonna say the opposite of these replies and say that music theory is definitely beneficial to writing music. sure, there is excitement in creating unorthodox song structures and chord progressions, but I believe the same rule in visual art applies to music as well: you gotta learn the rules before you can bend them! and even then, music doesn't always have to be groundbreaking and complicated. sometimes, simple, tried-and-true practices in music can be just as powerful and affecting.
Learning to read music helps and learning music theory helps.
I was fearful initially when taking music in college that knowing the methods behind the beauty would totally drain the joy out of it for me. Quite the opposite happened. I loved theory. It helped me so much that even though I hadn't played piano in ages I could sit down and read music so well that playing was kind of a breeze... bc I didn't have to translate what I was seeing into a language that made sense.
Anyway knowing unusual chords or how to spread chords out on guitar and piano is really helpful. I end up improvising a lot of stuff because once I know what key something is in I know what notes I can play and have it still sound good. Sometimes I just hit record and start improvising and get something I can use and sometimes I just fuck about and have a good time. The limitation I come up on is my lack of knowledge on chords on the guitar. Sometimes an A chord sounds better played on the 3,4,5 strings and sometimes it sounds better played higher up on the 1,2,3 strings. that is the cool thing about guitar that you can't do on piano.
Anyway I say its great. Knowledge doesn't have to corner you and put you in a box. I think we get this idea that because Autechre know shit all about music and Aphex Twin had no real training that knowing this stuff is useless and will somehow mess up your unique creative flow. I found nothing could be further from the truth. I will say listening to mainly opera and classical growing up because of my parents and learning to play clarinet and piano did hinder my sense of rhythm a bit. It wasn't like anything I listened to had drums or bass. So my musical education was a bit stunted in those areas.
One thing that helped my music ability was learning to play styles I didn't really enjoy listening to. I really never liked Jazz, but took a few years of jazz guitar because it was the only guitar class in the time slot I could do. I ended up loving it, and there are some very dissonant chord progressions and structures in there. It has probably been the one thing other than theory I'm so very glad I did.
I was fearful initially when taking music in college that knowing the methods behind the beauty would totally drain the joy out of it for me. Quite the opposite happened. I loved theory. It helped me so much that even though I hadn't played piano in ages I could sit down and read music so well that playing was kind of a breeze... bc I didn't have to translate what I was seeing into a language that made sense.
Anyway knowing unusual chords or how to spread chords out on guitar and piano is really helpful. I end up improvising a lot of stuff because once I know what key something is in I know what notes I can play and have it still sound good. Sometimes I just hit record and start improvising and get something I can use and sometimes I just fuck about and have a good time. The limitation I come up on is my lack of knowledge on chords on the guitar. Sometimes an A chord sounds better played on the 3,4,5 strings and sometimes it sounds better played higher up on the 1,2,3 strings. that is the cool thing about guitar that you can't do on piano.
Anyway I say its great. Knowledge doesn't have to corner you and put you in a box. I think we get this idea that because Autechre know shit all about music and Aphex Twin had no real training that knowing this stuff is useless and will somehow mess up your unique creative flow. I found nothing could be further from the truth. I will say listening to mainly opera and classical growing up because of my parents and learning to play clarinet and piano did hinder my sense of rhythm a bit. It wasn't like anything I listened to had drums or bass. So my musical education was a bit stunted in those areas.
One thing that helped my music ability was learning to play styles I didn't really enjoy listening to. I really never liked Jazz, but took a few years of jazz guitar because it was the only guitar class in the time slot I could do. I ended up loving it, and there are some very dissonant chord progressions and structures in there. It has probably been the one thing other than theory I'm so very glad I did.
No matter what you write ever, there is some scale or compositional theory about it, so to be honest it doesn't make THAT much difference. If you go towards a theory-based compositional approach, it becomes a series of choices. The more well-versed you are in musical theory, the more choices you become able to make.
That said, don't feel under pressure to take up music theory to somehow be more musical as a composer. Keep it primal. The Delta bluesmen had just as much musical depth as the classics using just voice, harmonica, primitive percussion and guitar.
That said, don't feel under pressure to take up music theory to somehow be more musical as a composer. Keep it primal. The Delta bluesmen had just as much musical depth as the classics using just voice, harmonica, primitive percussion and guitar.
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Synthestesia
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I'm sorry that wasn't a very good post. I take it back. Predictable stuff is always nice. Sorry if I threw you off.Synthestesia wrote:Randomness. That's the only idea you need to be original. Just have random progressions, like Gm to AM7 to BbM to Em etc.....
edit: And you have to be good at composing around the randomness like if you wanted a lead over that. It's an important skill.
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Totopatter
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SampleScience
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I may get some criticism/praise for this, but....
Music theory is one of the worst things that has ever happened to music. Pretty much all of my favorite artists completely disregard music theory in many of their songs and are IMO better off for it. Melody progression shouldn't have "rules". What you need is a chord book. Anything else should be your own idea.
Music theory is one of the worst things that has ever happened to music. Pretty much all of my favorite artists completely disregard music theory in many of their songs and are IMO better off for it. Melody progression shouldn't have "rules". What you need is a chord book. Anything else should be your own idea.
Okay...now...wait for fog machine.
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Synthestesia
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So your hehfilms? kewl. I agree a little, but music theory still is useful. so I criticized you and praised youRodheh wrote:I may get some criticism/praise for this, but....
Music theory is one of the worst things that has ever happened to music. Pretty much all of my favorite artists completely disregard music theory in many of their songs and are IMO better off for it. Melody progression shouldn't have "rules". What you need is a chord book. Anything else should be your own idea.
I'm not necessarily saying it can't be useful, it just tends to "lock" many artists, in my opinion.Synthestesia wrote:So your hehfilms? kewl. I agree a little, but music theory still is useful. so I criticized you and praised youRodheh wrote:I may get some criticism/praise for this, but....
Music theory is one of the worst things that has ever happened to music. Pretty much all of my favorite artists completely disregard music theory in many of their songs and are IMO better off for it. Melody progression shouldn't have "rules". What you need is a chord book. Anything else should be your own idea.
Okay...now...wait for fog machine.
I know what you're saying and I still beg to differ having taken music theory for several years. It opened things up and made it make sense. It didn't mean I had to follow a rule. But I understood why certain chords created a sense of movement and others created a sense of resolution.
For the strings and woodwinds especially there are certain keys that sound better than others. This isn't as true in electronic music. But it helps to know this if you are playing a traditional instrument in any capacity.
Other than that it pays far more to know your tools, DAW, and synthesis methods to dial in and program stuff. Programming synths and effects and automation is so freaking different from playing an instrument. And I'm not saying electronic instruments namely synthesizers aren't real instruments. I've always thought that was so beyond stupid.
For the strings and woodwinds especially there are certain keys that sound better than others. This isn't as true in electronic music. But it helps to know this if you are playing a traditional instrument in any capacity.
Other than that it pays far more to know your tools, DAW, and synthesis methods to dial in and program stuff. Programming synths and effects and automation is so freaking different from playing an instrument. And I'm not saying electronic instruments namely synthesizers aren't real instruments. I've always thought that was so beyond stupid.
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lostintegrity
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Aside from the question whether being aware of the logic inherent to sound, melody and chords is beneficial to the product of you as a musician, I personally wouldn't want to know anything about music theory, because it would take away the fun for me. After 16 years of making music on my computer I often still don't have a clue what I'm really doing musically (can't read notes, don't know what all the chords are called, only have a vague notion of which chords can be used together), and I keep trying until I have a melody or chord progression that sounds right to my ears. If I knew what I was doing by being aware of the logic of it, the production process would probably be much more efficient and faster, but I wouldn't feel amazed whenever I had made something extraordinary, in the same way that amateur philosophizing with all its logical fallacies that every human being engages in is for many people much more interesting than academic philosophy with all its rigid dichotomies and logic, though the latter is more efficient. I prefer to stay "dumb" from the perspective of a schooled musician than give up that feeling of wonderment.
Borné dans sa nature, infini dans ses vœux, l'homme est un dieu tombé qui se souvient des cieux.
Okay sorry to pull a total dick move here but for those of you arguing against it how many have actually learned it?? I mean are you speculating or are you actually talking from experience. And I'm not aiming this at people (guido) who haven't an interest in learning it at all but those of you who actually thinks it makes things worse?
Because it sounds to me like the same type of argument I heard from people who can't read music in defense of (their inability to read music) their theory that reading music some how screwed up their musical creativity and flow.
Because it sounds to me like the same type of argument I heard from people who can't read music in defense of (their inability to read music) their theory that reading music some how screwed up their musical creativity and flow.
I'm a theory nerd [or, at least, a compositional process nerd] and I say that if people want to use theory, good for them, but the ones who don't but still want to play with other people need to work out a good way to do it. It's using what works for you in communicating something not easily communicable- yeah it's really easy to say "Use an Am7add9 here" and have the other person know what you're talking about but if you don't know theory and don't know what chord you're playing and don't know what is going on, it's a pain to communicate.
The guitarist from my band isn't very well versed in theory - a little experience in tab and that's about it- but I've been able to get some wonderful tones just by asking him to play his part through and watching which notes his fingers hit and then basing something off of that - not always like 'oh hey you're playing a lot of notes like A B C and E, those are an Aadd9 chord, so i'm going to fill in the bass note with an A' but like 'oh hey you're playing A B C and E, if I played an F for the bass note that'd make this weird dissonant shaky structure and we could resolve things from there'.
People arguing against theory - do you play with others? do you tune your guitar/synth to A440? you use theory if you do. It doesn't hurt to know, especially when you realise it's not a user manual to music but a maze of twisting passages, with all sorts of endless offshoots and dead ends.
A good metaphor would be assuming just because people on facebook know eachother the map relating all of them would be simple- there's just so much material there that you really can't process it in one go [likewise you can't use ALL of music theory in one song].
It's a tool to be used as fully or as sparsely as needed.
Also, I am disinclined to use standard sheet music - I feel it inhibits creativity and bogs down a performance in nuances that should be left to the performer's discretion. That's probably because I'm very slow at reading actual sheet music [it's been a while since piano lessons] but jazz notation [where the melody is on a staff and the chord progression is written as chords, with no direction on where or which inversion to play] has been really beneficial.
The guitarist from my band isn't very well versed in theory - a little experience in tab and that's about it- but I've been able to get some wonderful tones just by asking him to play his part through and watching which notes his fingers hit and then basing something off of that - not always like 'oh hey you're playing a lot of notes like A B C and E, those are an Aadd9 chord, so i'm going to fill in the bass note with an A' but like 'oh hey you're playing A B C and E, if I played an F for the bass note that'd make this weird dissonant shaky structure and we could resolve things from there'.
People arguing against theory - do you play with others? do you tune your guitar/synth to A440? you use theory if you do. It doesn't hurt to know, especially when you realise it's not a user manual to music but a maze of twisting passages, with all sorts of endless offshoots and dead ends.
A good metaphor would be assuming just because people on facebook know eachother the map relating all of them would be simple- there's just so much material there that you really can't process it in one go [likewise you can't use ALL of music theory in one song].
It's a tool to be used as fully or as sparsely as needed.
Also, I am disinclined to use standard sheet music - I feel it inhibits creativity and bogs down a performance in nuances that should be left to the performer's discretion. That's probably because I'm very slow at reading actual sheet music [it's been a while since piano lessons] but jazz notation [where the melody is on a staff and the chord progression is written as chords, with no direction on where or which inversion to play] has been really beneficial.
Lens Larque wrote:For a while I was wondering what happened to the Depression thread and I was not sure if that was good or bad news.
I don't know much more than the real basics of music theory - it comes with having perfect pitch and being able to play by ear since I was really young. So everything I know about music has been on a kind of more intuitive level, and it's never done me any harm.
...until I started working with other musicians last year. I have a good friend who's pretty much on my wavelength musically in every other respect but he's REALLY strong on theory, and trying to communicate even with him is pretty hard going - it's only because we know each other so well we got anything going at all. (I find myself saying things like "that chord needs to be more diagonal and compressy" and he knows what I mean by that). Admittedly, it took the best part of a bottle of good quality whiskey before we started to click that session. What would have been easier is if I'd been able to say "C#MinorMajor" and he'd have gone right to it. As it was it involved recording everything we did and going back over it saying "what the hell is THAT chord"
So yeah, theory is one of those things - it takes you to places you wouldn't ordinarily go if you say "from here, I can go to that chord apparently, what does THAT sound like... oh yeah". Or, if you're working with someone else, it's REALLY useful. On your own... meh, well, if you have some other way of doing it, I think you can make a case for it not being SO important, but you know yourself whether your own stuff is coming off all the same and could do with ideas.
...until I started working with other musicians last year. I have a good friend who's pretty much on my wavelength musically in every other respect but he's REALLY strong on theory, and trying to communicate even with him is pretty hard going - it's only because we know each other so well we got anything going at all. (I find myself saying things like "that chord needs to be more diagonal and compressy" and he knows what I mean by that). Admittedly, it took the best part of a bottle of good quality whiskey before we started to click that session. What would have been easier is if I'd been able to say "C#MinorMajor" and he'd have gone right to it. As it was it involved recording everything we did and going back over it saying "what the hell is THAT chord"
So yeah, theory is one of those things - it takes you to places you wouldn't ordinarily go if you say "from here, I can go to that chord apparently, what does THAT sound like... oh yeah". Or, if you're working with someone else, it's REALLY useful. On your own... meh, well, if you have some other way of doing it, I think you can make a case for it not being SO important, but you know yourself whether your own stuff is coming off all the same and could do with ideas.
MrMessiah.. I think you are saying in part what I didn't really but only alluded to. It's a language as well as math (not that math isn't language) but definitely when trying to communicate with someone who knows it and you are trying to express what you mean by something it helps to have a common frame of reference.
It was shocking to me after taking theory for 6 months, which was a 4 day a week class, how much I had actually grown as a musician and not even realized it. I was also busy playing guitar and learning to read music and tabs for guitar which sits quite a bit lower (7 steps) below the last line on the Bass Clef. That was always really hard for me to read in piano. I made it easily down to C an octave below middle C on the piano. Anyway one day I sat down at the piano and just started playing and was blown away at how well I was doing and it was because I could READ. Reading music gets in your way when you don't read it well. But it definitely enhances your ability if you can.
But here is the thing that rocks about theory the most for me. Once I knew the circle of 5th inside and out I could just give a cursory glance at the music sheet to know what key we were in and then I could just rip improvising. I knew where to go to make it sound good and its at that point my playing style really unleashed itself because I wasn't being held back by my own illiteracy.
If you are plucking things out on the computer and shifting midi notes about or dealing with sequencers or trackers I don't see the need other than interest honestly. And lots and lots of people write great music this way, solidly in the box, & no playing skill whatsoever. And I'm glad for it.
It was shocking to me after taking theory for 6 months, which was a 4 day a week class, how much I had actually grown as a musician and not even realized it. I was also busy playing guitar and learning to read music and tabs for guitar which sits quite a bit lower (7 steps) below the last line on the Bass Clef. That was always really hard for me to read in piano. I made it easily down to C an octave below middle C on the piano. Anyway one day I sat down at the piano and just started playing and was blown away at how well I was doing and it was because I could READ. Reading music gets in your way when you don't read it well. But it definitely enhances your ability if you can.
But here is the thing that rocks about theory the most for me. Once I knew the circle of 5th inside and out I could just give a cursory glance at the music sheet to know what key we were in and then I could just rip improvising. I knew where to go to make it sound good and its at that point my playing style really unleashed itself because I wasn't being held back by my own illiteracy.
If you are plucking things out on the computer and shifting midi notes about or dealing with sequencers or trackers I don't see the need other than interest honestly. And lots and lots of people write great music this way, solidly in the box, & no playing skill whatsoever. And I'm glad for it.