GENERAL NEW RELEASE SPECULATION TOPIC

warphead · Post by **warphead** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:15 pm

TaoTapeTao wrote:
SonicDimension wrote:
TaoTapeTao wrote:Their music is responsible for me understanding nature as mathematical and that in fact math is nature and math is organic and not some unnatural strange set or rules or laws we came up with one day. Maybe psychedelics helped in this understanding too.. lol. Well both of those combined I guess.
Math is no more or less 'natural' than other languages. Pure math is essentially a bunch of games with rules invented by humans, but some natural phenomena or patterns can be 'understood' (or reflected in the human consciousness) in terms of the concepts and symbolic systems we invented, like numbers, space and time, and various branches of mathematics. So I disagree with your assertion that math and nature are identical. That idea seems naively anthropocentric. There is so much more in nature than any humans will ever be able to understand or express in words, math, music or any other form of culture or communication.
I guess I was being to vague but I was mostly trying to say that I've observed nature and the universe to be a highly complex, self referencing system/organism which can be compared to our language of mathematics. Basically what betacord just said.

Yes math comes from our observations of laws of the universe but I mean more that it is highly organized and complex and self referencing "being" and works much like the mathematical idea of fractals. And that after some psychedelic experiences my previous notion of mathematics as just a set of strange rules was replaced with an understanding of it being a reflection of a much more inherent and organic behavior of the universe, and that we've picked up on this pattern of nature and created mathematics as a language to describe it.

And since math is an extension of ourselves, it IS natural. We come from nature. Also in general since we created maths as a result of observed behaviors of the universe and nature it is therefore a reflection (although ultimately imperfect) of the behavior of the universe and there is established a significant connection between math and nature. How else would we be able to make incredible predictions about the behavior of the universe and physics and countless other things?

But yes, for the most part I agree with what you're saying, and that language is only an approximation of what is really going on. Ultimately it boils down to plato's cave and us humans are stuck trying to describe the (I believe) infinity of nature/the universe through our limited perception and experience of it.

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

TaoTapeTao · Post by **TaoTapeTao** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:15 pm

yep. Does anyone like john frusciante?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFzKC8CJ_7A

This is dope. And he's a perfectionist much like boc in a way.

fujee · Post by **fujee** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:04 pm

John definitely isnt a perfectionist man, have you heard Smile from the streets you hold?

Betacord · Post by **Betacord** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:29 pm

warphead wrote:Zzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Ha ha! Actually, it was an easy enough read for me and I completely get what was said, but there you are... I understand it can be difficult to try and simplify explanations sometimes.

If you thought that was bad - I've seen plenty of real wall-of-text posts that are way longer, more rambling, and on more obscure (borderline tedious) subjects, so comparatively this was a piece of cake, really!

SonicDimension · Post by **SonicDimension** » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:56 pm

TaoTapeTao wrote: And since math is an extension of ourselves, it IS natural.

I see what you mean, but it turns out that our culture's mathematical language for describing natural phenomena contains a lot of hidden assumptions and values that arose relatively recently in human history. I think the values that gave rise to math and modern science stem from the desire of civilized cultures to dominate and control the wild, untamed forces of nature.

This is why they need to reduce the infinite variety of events in the universe into tidy arrangements of symbols and quantify everything with the 'universal' number systems. But are they really universal? I used to think so until I started reading about cultures that have quite different conceptions of numbers, space, and time. For instance, a recent study on the Yupno of Papua New Guinea suggests that ideas as basic as the number line and measurements of space and time are not innate, but are learned.

Even though modern science and math have apparently enabled humans to have some understanding of causation in various systems and so make accurate predictions, I wonder how much comprehension of the universe they really possess. Apparently they do not have enough comprehension to sort out their relationship to the environment because science and math often fail when they are applied to complex systems like weather, the oceans, the forests, and the earth as a whole.

None of us have a direct link to every layer of reality, so I think it's always helpful to look critically at some of our staid institutions and ideas and be open to some wild new possibilities. That's one reason I love BoC-- sometimes their music helps me to move past ways of thinking that are culturally 'locked-in,' if you know what I mean. It opens doors.

TaoTapeTao · Post by **TaoTapeTao** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:05 am

fujee wrote:John definitely isnt a perfectionist man, have you heard Smile from the streets you hold?

yeah true, and I love smiles. I'd say more his devotion and time put into music is similar to boc in a way. But then again most good artists are like that

I see what you mean, but it turns out that our culture's mathematical language for describing natural phenomena contains a lot of hidden assumptions and values that arose relatively recently in human history. I think the values that gave rise to math and modern science stem from the desire of civilized cultures to dominate and control the wild, untamed forces of nature.

This is why they need to reduce the infinite variety of events in the universe into tidy arrangements of symbols and quantify everything with the 'universal' number systems. But are they really universal? I used to think so until I started reading about cultures that have quite different conceptions of numbers, space, and time. For instance, a recent study on the Yupno of Papua New Guinea suggests that ideas as basic as the number line and measurements of space and time are not innate, but are learned.

Even though modern science and math have apparently enabled humans to have some understanding of causation in various systems and so make accurate predictions, I wonder how much comprehension of the universe they really possess. Apparently they do not have enough comprehension to sort out their relationship to the environment because science and math often fail when they are applied to complex systems like weather, the oceans, the forests, and the earth as a whole.

None of us have a direct link to every layer of reality, so I think it's always helpful to look critically at some of our staid institutions and ideas and be open to some wild new possibilities. That's one reason I love BoC-- sometimes their music helps me to move past ways of thinking that are culturally 'locked-in,' if you know what I mean. It opens doors.

I agree with this-- I actually don't think numbers are exact or objectively real and what science and math tend to assign as such are only representations, and that reality if anything has many possible representations. What remains is that there is some kind of unified pattern underneath that with a variety of languages can be articulated or described as long as they detail such relationships. Yeah it really just boils down to plato's cave.

Because even our way of understanding reality is by separating and contrasting it and dividing it up into specific parts which like Alan watts talked about extensively shows that there is an underlying relationship between any divided thing and reality is at the same time divisible but ultimately unified and inseparable. It's chaos and order at the same time.

But I do still want to describe nature as "mathematical", not in that its exactly like math, but is a complex system and works in similar fashion to the idea of math. Everything in it works to weave some kind of form and further layer of a system or "organism" so to speak.

I don't think that nature is inherently chaotic but its malleable and languages are created to impose order and unify ruling traits or patterns of reality. There are multiple variations of ways to describe the universe but they all yield some kind of event going on.

And with that I end this quasi-philosophical rant and apologize for another wall of text. Goodbye.

Betacord · Post by **Betacord** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:45 pm

On how the concepts differ with culture, it seems this would also apply to colour - distinguishing between different shades as something that is more learned than innate - reminded of this example which was fascinating the first time I saw it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4b71rT9fU-I

BTW, I don't think there's a need to apologise for long-ish posts on these subjects, given it is a reasonable, open discussion in a thread that has probably been more OT than it is now (all in lieu of relevant updates, of course

) - so personally, I think this is all good. If there is a wider objection to it however, then that's fine.

d3v3l · Post by **d3v3l** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:13 pm

Just chillaxin to some

so where is this double album? So much for june 9th...

Magrathea · Post by **Magrathea** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:31 pm

TaoTapeTao wrote:But yes, for the most part I agree with what you're saying, and that language is only an approximation of what is really going on. Ultimately it boils down to plato's cave and us humans are stuck trying to describe the (I believe) infinity of nature/the universe through our limited perception and experience of it.

The Holographic Principle, which is likely a reason why our understanding is limited, it's hard enough to think in 3 dimensions, but what if the universe is, as posited by some, made of 11 or 12 dimensions. We are clearly NOT equipped to perceive that and it becomes very limitative. However, we can be urged on and as Morpheus would say "Free your Mind!"

Negamuse · Post by **Negamuse** » Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:57 pm

Yeah, you don't want to take the whole "11 dimensions" thing too literally. It's not meant to imply there's some kind of parallel dimensions intersecting our plane of existence or anything "cosmic" like that, it's just a mathematical nicety to make the calculations work out. Most of the time it's just shorthand for saying "consider the problem from THIS point of reference..." It's a simplification, so the calculations you do have to do become easier.

It's like the whole concept of complex numbers. You know about them? A complex number consists of a real and an imaginary part. What's an imaginary number? It's denoted with a little 'i', and 'i' is the square root of -1. The thing is, you can't have square root of a negative number, it doesn't make sense. But if you *could*, and you called it i, and you looked at numbers this way, it gives you a way of doing some maths that's otherwise pretty complicated. Fluid dynamics, engineering, analysis, and lest we forget, if you express a certain function that way and colour it in with a particular method you get the Mandelbrot Set, that multicoloured fractal that's adorned the walls of millions of students and hippies since time immemorial. Most of whom don't know what it means, but that's OK, cos hey, it's pretty to look at.

What it isn't is cosmic or mystical, but it is interesting (if you're into that kind of thing). It describes some corner of the universe and how it works in some way.

cubistking1906 · Post by **cubistking1906** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 2:17 am

Speaking of fractals, here's an open source fractal program if any are interested.

XaoS Fractal Generator

Nothing like fractals to open up the mind.

Also if anyone knows of any other free fractal programs I'd love to check them out.

TaoTapeTao · Post by **TaoTapeTao** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:06 am

Idk if you know about electric sheep but its essentially a screensaver fractal generator and it uses various image sources to generate new images and transitions and it evolves over time. But I'd recommend checking it out.

And to me personally, fractals are something "cosmic" or "mystic" because if you examine anything or at least anything that's able to be seen or examined at this pointthere is always an extension of the same mechanic going on of life going on. Cells in a body to people in a group to cities on earth to earth among planets etc. etc. There is always some kind of structure whether it be atoms or cells or people or civilizations or galaxies or whatever that elicits more form and higher layers of existence or greater structures. There seems to be this unshakeable form tendency of nature to be found in about anything. It's a self sustaining or preserving "force" and idk about anyone else but if wherever you go you find a similar self referencing pattern, that to me seems like a fractal. So in that sense fractals can be something cosmic or mystical.

Waterbagel · Post by **Waterbagel** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 7:33 am

cubistking1906 wrote:Speaking of fractals, here's an open source fractal program if any are interested.

XaoS Fractal Generator

Nothing like fractals to open up the mind.

Also if anyone knows of any other free fractal programs I'd love to check them out.

and here i was, about to go to sleep..

+motion blur +starfield

"WUT"

saurus · Post by **saurus** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 12:08 pm

I;m looking forward to the new album!

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 1:04 pm

I have a feeling a new album won't be announced today. Just a hunch.

Magrathea · Post by **Magrathea** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:15 pm

MrMessiah wrote:Yeah, you don't want to take the whole "11 dimensions" thing too literally.

Cosmology is what I do along work in life, no worries

cubistking1906 · Post by **cubistking1906** » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:11 pm

TaoTapeTao wrote:And to me personally, fractals are something "cosmic" or "mystic" because if you examine anything or at least anything that's able to be seen or examined at this pointthere is always an extension of the same mechanic going on of life going on. Cells in a body to people in a group to cities on earth to earth among planets etc. etc. There is always some kind of structure whether it be atoms or cells or people or civilizations or galaxies or whatever that elicits more form and higher layers of existence or greater structures. There seems to be this unshakeable form tendency of nature to be found in about anything. It's a self sustaining or preserving "force" and idk about anyone else but if wherever you go you find a similar self referencing pattern, that to me seems like a fractal. So in that sense fractals can be something cosmic or mystical.

I totally agree on these points. It's like if you watch fast motion videos of car traffic or people walking around you start to see intricate self-similar patterns in the motion trails. And it is interesting to think of the cosmos in terms of a hierarchy, starting with the largest bodies and moving downwards to the smallest or even vice versa, and then contemplating the connection between these vast extremes. A lot of times doing a fractal zoom will remind me of using Google Earth, except with a nearly infinite zoom. The similarity of fractals shapes to natural formations like rivers and galaxies is astonishing.

Using a color cycling animation breathes life into a fractal and you start to watch it literally flow like water in a river or the blood in your veins. That's where I start to see the mystical side of the topic in spades. It's like you're peering behind the veils of reality and looking into the codes of life itself.

TaoTapeTao wrote:Idk if you know about electric sheep but its essentially a screensaver fractal generator and it uses various image sources to generate new images and transitions and it evolves over time. But I'd recommend checking it out.

I will check this out.

Waterbagel wrote:and here i was, about to go to sleep..

+motion blur +starfield

"WUT"

This is sweet I've never seen that before. It looks like old TV static.

Try this to enable color cycling for a full fractal psychedelic effect:

1. Click FILE>LOAD RANDOM EXAMPLE until you get a cool one.
2. Click on FILTERS>PALETTE EMULATOR.
3. Then press the 'y' key to enable color cycling.
4. Enjoy. (For more fun press 'p' after you press 'y' to load a random color palette.)

d3v3l · Post by **d3v3l** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 9:20 am

TaoTapeTao wrote:
SonicDimension wrote:
TaoTapeTao wrote:Their music is responsible for me understanding nature as mathematical and that in fact math is nature and math is organic and not some unnatural strange set or rules or laws we came up with one day. Maybe psychedelics helped in this understanding too.. lol. Well both of those combined I guess.
Math is no more or less 'natural' than other languages. Pure math is essentially a bunch of games with rules invented by humans, but some natural phenomena or patterns can be 'understood' (or reflected in the human consciousness) in terms of the concepts and symbolic systems we invented, like numbers, space and time, and various branches of mathematics. So I disagree with your assertion that math and nature are identical. That idea seems naively anthropocentric. There is so much more in nature than any humans will ever be able to understand or express in words, math, music or any other form of culture or communication.
I guess I was being to vague but I was mostly trying to say that I've observed nature and the universe to be a highly complex, self referencing system/organism which can be compared to our language of mathematics. Basically what betacord just said.

Yes math comes from our observations of laws of the universe but I mean more that it is highly organized and complex and self referencing "being" and works much like the mathematical idea of fractals. And that after some psychedelic experiences my previous notion of mathematics as just a set of strange rules was replaced with an understanding of it being a reflection of a much more inherent and organic behavior of the universe, and that we've picked up on this pattern of nature and created mathematics as a language to describe it.

And since math is an extension of ourselves, it IS natural. We come from nature. Also in general since we created maths as a result of observed behaviors of the universe and nature it is therefore a reflection (although ultimately imperfect) of the behavior of the universe and there is established a significant connection between math and nature. How else would we be able to make incredible predictions about the behavior of the universe and physics and countless other things?

But yes, for the most part I agree with what you're saying, and that language is only an approximation of what is really going on. Ultimately it boils down to plato's cave and us humans are stuck trying to describe the (I believe) infinity of nature/the universe through our limited perception and experience of it.

lol... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0

TaoTapeTao · Post by **TaoTapeTao** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:15 pm

hmm.. other people tend to get what I'm saying so signs point to the fact that you don't understand..

Cryabetes · Post by **Cryabetes** » Fri Jun 15, 2012 6:19 pm

page 237. The room from the shining, innit?

This could be nothing but vandalism, but the BoC wikipedia page has different dates for their birth.
Marcus is listed at July 21, 1971 [bocpages and his personal wiki article have him at May 27 '73] and Michael at June 1 1970 [bocpages @ July 14th, '71]

Both of the purported dates are mondays. June 1 1970 was the day the Soyuz 9 was launched. Iunno. Someone else please read more into this than me.

edit: found the edit in the history. December 2010. y'all are slacking. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... =404841882

and per this http://iplocation.pythonclub.org/82.69.93.93.html, they're in the UK. Do they break ip addresses down to specific locations within the UK, anyone know? say, for instance, scotland?