Vegetarianism/confusion

[pianoforte]

I have always been a serious carnivore, but during the past year or two I have started worrying about animal rights and feeling very guilty about my meat-eating.

I'm not sure what do. I don't ever feel worse than immediately post-lamb chops, but I don't know how to start making the conversion to vegetarianism because have spent my life believing that meat is absolutely delicious.

I'm confused and sad and lonely and HELP ME!!!!!!!

[A_Northern_Soul]

Don't feel guilty about eating meat - it's what our bodies are designed for.

By all means, eat less meat and make sure that the meat you do eat is as responsibly reared and well looked after as possible.

*grills bacon*

[Negamuse]

Just wherever possible make the effort to make sure that the meat you eat is ethically produced with an eye on its welfare when it was alive, and how it is killed. I say "wherever possible" because you can't always get that information, although that depends on where you shop. Where I live I'm really lucky, I live a few miles away from farms with farm shops where you walk past their (alive) animals on the way in, and some really good independent butchers.

The other thing is eating that way ends up costing more, but not as much as you might think, as the meat you buy from them also lasts longer. If you buy a whole chicken you can get a week's meals off it. Cost is one of those things that's a bit of a bugbear with me, actually. Because really its not that eating this meat is expensive, it's just that generations of factory farming and industrialised production has driven the price down so low that it's become what everyone thinks of as "normal cost". You only have to look at the horse-meat scandal in the UK at the moment to see some of the problems those methods can throw up, and then there's the animal welfare ethics.

So yeah... have a look for farms with farm shops near you, farmers markets (tend to be a bit more expensive), farm co-ops and so on, and then yeah, enjoy some beautiful vegetarian food the rest of the time. Nothing wrong with a bit of both worlds.

[Treefingers]

I don't have a problem with eating meat, inherently. Any concerns I have would relate to the dodgy farming methods and poor conditions and such.

In which case, vegetarianism wouldn't really be the answer because of dairy being as much a part of the problem. I do agree we shouldn't eat quite so much meat, though, and I don't.

The problem with contemporary society is that it's very difficult to do anything that doesn't - in some way - have negative repercussions. Look at this: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... uth-quinoa

[Amo Bishop Roden]

As a vegetarian, I can assure you that the switch is not difficult at all. Aside from going through it myself, I've seen plenty of friends do it, all of whom told me how surprised they were that it wasn't harder. Next time you go shopping, don't buy any meat. Try to imagine all the things you cook regularly, and now imagine how you could do them sans-meat, and shop accordingly. After the first week keeping a meatless kitchen becomes second nature. Also, do yourself a favor and go out to eat a little more often than you do now. Witnessing the vegetarian options at restaurants first hand will give you some more ideas as to what you could make yourself.

If this is what you want to do, do it. Don't let anyone talk you out of it. Likewise, if you're not sure, don't charge full bore into it. Try it, see if it's for you, and if it's not, stop. Vegetarianism isn't irreversible; you can start and stop at your leisure.

Remember; the hardest thing about being a vegetarian isn't the diet, it's the people who (for reasons I still can't figure out) don't want you to be one.

[saturdayindex]

I've felt similarly in the past. But I rationalize it in that, as A Northern Soul said, our bodies really are designed to eat meat. After all, animals are designed to eat each other (and many of them are built to digest us)! Humans are at the top of the food chain, because of all those years of evolution allowing us to develop hunting skills.

Maybe triaging your meat consumption to only consume species of a lower consciousness or perceived sentience will make you feel a bit better. For example, it's a bit easier to justify eating a tuna sandwich, but who wants to think about eating a baby dolphin? My girlfriend will absolutely not eat veal, but she's ok with having a mature bison burger every so often.

As others said, it's always reassuring to know that your meat has come from a place where the animals are treated humanely. I will never eat at McDonald's again, after seeing the movie Food Inc.

P.S. I am happy with my diet, because it does not include any of this: http://www.puppybeef.com/products.php

[lightsoutnepal]

I've gone from eating meat to vegetarian and now follow a vegan diet. It's definitely a change at first but after a month of introducing quinoa/kale/lentils/rice/tofu/tempeh regularly into your diet you'd be amazed at the difference in energy levels. Try making a conscious effort to replace one meal a week with a veggie-centric dish...then maybe two...etc.

But honestly I'd echo the sentiments above too...try to ethically source it if you can. Not only will you get better flavor but the "satisfaction" of not supporting big industry with shitty practices. Or maybe try switching to just fish while cutting out chicken/beef to start. There's a lot of great resources out there now for meal ideas. Good topic.

[Jonse]

Life must feed on life to continue living.

Don't feel guilty about it.

[TaoTapeTao]

I don't feel guilty, I feel angry that corporations are exploiting the fact that we are a consumer based economy and therefore food is mass produced and in high demand therefore facilitating and necessitating this production method. We are being taken advantage of and so are the animals all for the mighty dollar and it's disgusting. I don't mean it lightly when I say it equates to genocide the way we slaughter animals for food in most cases.

WITH THAT BEING SAID yes life feeds on life, it's necessary. I don't feel bad about eating another animal to survive, it's just a fact of nature and to impose morality on it has no utility because it's not a matter of right or wrong really.

But animals do not endlessly torture their food (though some play with their prey) and there are less cruel ways it could be done.

[Syberia]

I'm a vegan and haven't been eating meat for the part thirteen years, and no milk and eggs for the past 4 years. I don't by the whole "we are build to eat meat"-thing. I been just fine all the years without meat. I'm not over/under-weight, I can build muscles easily and I'm overall very healthy. Meat can never be anything else than just an animal with feelings, personality, dreams and relationships in my eyes. Living with animals that’s the only way I can see them.

Here in sweden the whole "horse-meat scandal" have been very acclaimed and I read a very good article that I think have many good points when it comes to our attitude to animals and the meat industry. I have no time to translate it in a "correct" way so google translate will have to do..

"Lasagna from Findus, which according to the table of contents would contain beef found to contain meat from horses. Why do we react as we do for horse meat?
The scandal of the mislabelled horse flesh tells us something important about our society's complicated relationship with meat. It is a perfect example of how we have learned to divide the animals into different compartments.

Melanie Joy, professor of social psychology at the University of Massachusetts, has done research on carnivores approach to animals and start their lectures with an imaginary history at the dinner table. As a guest, you know that dinner does not include steak as you thought, but the golden retriever. You feel nauseated, and can no longer even eat the vegetables around it. The main ingredient, meat, did not change, but your feelings about food changed when the meat seemed to come from a different kind of animal than you thought.

In Sweden it is not just vegetarians who opt out of horse meat consumption is generally low. We have a strong relationship with the horse as a pet. How can it be that we find some species being edible and others not?

A carnivores do not usually eat meat of all kinds of animals. The word "veganism" however describe eating habits that are controlled by an ideology with an ethical not to kill animals at all. Since we make the difference between eating a steak and horse meat, it seems that even those who eat meat have an ideological basis for their choice.
For how many of us it has been a conscious choice to eat meat? Chances are that you have not chosen it. It has been seen as natural, necessary and normal.

That people eating animals for a long time does not mean it needs to be right. Slavery and violence against women are examples of phenomena that are also long existed in the community, but we realize that only the longstanding justify them today. The belief that meat is necessary means that the consumption of animals is seen as inevitable. The same myth was the slave trade by the end of the 1700s when almost no one could imagine its abolition.

Most probably eat meat because they are used to it and think it tastes good. We are brought up to the carnivores and the standard maintained by social institutions, livestock industries and the media. We did not even notice that we make a choice when we eat meat.

Just as feminists began to mention patriarchy as an invisible social structure, Melanie Joy has coined the term karnism (from the Latin word for meat). Karnism describes the invisible structure and ideology behind the choice to eat meat from certain species of cattle, pigs, chickens and fish.

What makes meat eating complex is that people care so much about animals. We can not stand to see them suffer. Therefore, the public must be kept separate from the animals raised for meat for the system to work.
Most consumers get their picture of how animals have it from advertising and stories. In reality, held 99 percent of Swedish pigs indoors entire life, and one in ten pigs have fully developed ulcers at the time of slaughter. We do not see the animals because they are trapped. A total of 80 million chickens are slaughtered every year in Sweden, but it is empty of fields outside of the chicken farms.

The few times we see suffering, for example in scandal images from Swedish pig farms just as we should buy turkey, we can not defend ourselves from our strong compassion. The myths we served on livestock means that our compassion is kept under control and covers over our conscience if we ever hesitate meat. We have learned to make us insensitive to the animals on the plate.

The scandal of horse meat is the perfect time for us as a society to ask us why we eat certain animals. If we do not start naming karnismen remains invisible and can not be questioned. The discomfort we may feel for the horse meat is worth taking seriously.
Camilla Björkbom"

And also very, very true and well said Amo Bishop Roden!

[A_Northern_Soul]

^ please don't equate my lunch choices with slavery. I don't make a moral judgement on your diet and I'd rather you didn't mine.

We're designed for an omnivorous diet* (we have canine teeth for cutting meat and the fact that our bodies are physically able to digest meat, means we've evolved to eat meat). (* - I do believe there's weight to the arguement that we're not meant to eat quite as much meat as we do - if you look at the % of meat the diets of our nearest relatives).

I'm sure you can get adequate nutrition following a veggie/vegan diet - especially given how much we now know about nutrition, but I do believe that we function best on an omnivorous diet - I'll feed my kids on this sort of diet for that reason. If they then choose an alternative, than that'll be their informed choice to make.

If the original poster chooses a veggie/vegan diet then great, but painting meat eating as something backward that we need to move on from doesn't help.

[Syberia]

^ please don't equate my lunch choices with slavery. I don't make a moral judgement on your diet and I'd rather you didn't mine.

We're designed for an omnivorous diet* (we have canine teeth for cutting meat and the fact that our bodies are physically able to digest meat, means we've evolved to eat meat). (* - I do believe there's weight to the arguement that we're not meant to eat quite as much meat as we do - if you look at the % of meat the diets of our nearest relatives).

I'm sure you can get adequate nutrition following a veggie/vegan diet - especially given how much we now know about nutrition, but I do believe that we function best on an omnivorous diet - I'll feed my kids on this sort of diet for that reason. If they then choose an alternative, than that'll be their informed choice to make.

If the original poster chooses a veggie/vegan diet then great, but painting meat eating as something backward that we need to move on from doesn't help.

I'm just discussing and to me there are no difference on animal suffering and human suffering and suffering is something we need to prevent if we can, in my opinion. We can't understand their language and that's makes it easier to not sympathize with them. But really I can't see the difference with what we do with the animals and how we treated the slaves (and now I speak about the industry).

Fine if you want to go out and hunt or fish in the forest and skinning the animal, clean out the intestines and eat the meat but people normally don't like to do that. I just think the article has a good point in questioning why it's so hard for us to kill and eat animals by our self. Claiming that we are meat-eaters when we obviously have such a problem with it that we like other to do it for us, (generally speaking).

I'm sorry if you feel attacked but this is a very emotional question for me. And really, you kind of make a judgement when you say that you think we function best on an omnivorous diet which I take as you don't think I function as good as you do. It's a hard topic and very easy to step on peoples toes.

I think it's an interesting topic to discuss that's all and I can totally understand why Pianoforte wanted to talk about this. Since Pianoforte have this thoughts I like to encouraging him to go the way I think is right.

Pianoforte, It will be hard for maybe the first month but then it will get easier every day. I can recommend you to by a vegetarian cookbook to get some tips and inspiration.

[TaoTapeTao]

Just to weigh in a little bit- I think that as long as humans are developed to eat meat and get all of the nutrients, fatty acids, whatever from meat that I don't think killing an animal humanely (not factory farming basically) that morality shouldn't apply to actual consumption. It's still necessary and most people can't afford/don't have the opportunity to follow a vegan lifestyle

-I also know nothing about health and nutrition involving this sort of lifestyle so I can't really comment on that.

the universe is not always 100% benevolent-- life has evolved from consuming itself. That's just a fact. I don't think that people who eat meat are bad people and I don't think vegans/vegetarians are better because they don't. I think that giant factory farm corporations are evil terrible things and I'm ashamed that my fellow man could do this kind of stuff. Because it literally is genocide.

[A_Northern_Soul]

"Claiming that we are meat-eaters when we obviously have such a problem with it that we like other to do it for us, (generally speaking). " - I also like driving, but I'd much rather trust Audi to make my car than attempt to build one myself.

I have no doubt that your vegan diet is great - healthy, nutritious. I just happen to believe that meat and animal products are the best source of some of the things we need.

You've clearly made an informed choice about your diet on ethical grounds, I just have an issue with the way you present the alternative as inhumane. There are plenty animals out there which would eat me given the opportunity; and I'm pretty certain that slaughtering me on a humane manner wouldn't be high on their agenda ;)

There are definitely issues around the ways in which we rear and slaughter animals (not to mention distribute and sell and recent issues in Europe have highlighted). I'm all for ensuring that the animals I do eat are as ethically looked after as possible, I just didn't like some of the analogies used in your initial post. I don't like being preached to ;)

[mono]

Just to weigh in a little bit- I think that as long as humans are developed to eat meat and get all of the nutrients, fatty acids, whatever from meat that I don't think killing an animal humanely (not factory farming basically) that morality shouldn't apply to actual consumption. It's still necessary and most people can't afford/don't have the opportunity to follow a vegan lifestyle

I don't know about a "vegan lifestyle", but a "vegetarian diet" is not particularly expensive, as long as you drink milk. In fact I'd say that it's by a very wide margin cheaper to get your protein from milk than it is from meat. Fruit can be expensive depending on where you live, but you should eat fruit in an omnivorous diet anyway. The rest is rice and bread, which is as cheap as it gets.

Anyway, I'm a vegetarian but it's no big deal. Mass vegetarianism is not an option, so it's not really something politically relevant. For me it is a strictly personal thing. The truly ethical thing about food is the working conditions of peasants - but of course your diet is not going to change that, much less if you buy into that eco-food crap. So eat meat or don't eat meat but brush up on your Marx.

[coffee grapes]

I found the way to converting to vegetarianism was slowly crossing off animals I would eat. I never ate veal, or lamb, or anything unusual (except alligator my grandparents made me try).

First, I stopped eating Beef, because I honestly wouldn't have the will to be able to kill a cow, no matter what weapon or tools I had. I remember thinking about it one time when I was walking past a huge field of cows, and I felt like they could sense the meat in my stomach. Not only that, but I grew to love cows. They're awesome and adorable young, and their shit makes good mushrooms

Basically I would just eat bird (chicken or turkey) and fish. My reasoning was that I sure as hell would kill one of those to eat it. But over time I started to get weirded out by meat altogether. Just seeing raw chicken made me think how essentially it's just animal body going into my mouth. So I cut out chicken, and moved onto pescatarianism.

Eventually though I just felt the need to stop eating meat altogether, and so far it's been working out pretty well. I think the biggest help is being able to cook on your own. Vegan dishes are amazing, and I feel wayyyy better being full after a meal of vegan ingredients, than I did after shoving a beef patty down my hatch.

I'm no longer vegan (well actually I never was cause I never gave up eggs) but the reason being is cause I work in a kitchen as a line cook, so its my job to make sure the food I send out is still good and hasn't spoiled. I really don't mind it, I'm not someone who throws up just knowing I ate a piece of bacon or something.

In fact I still like to try other peoples delicious meals even if it contains meat, simply because I admire a good chef. But for the most part I try to eat vegan and I feel pretty good about that.


If you are really serious, I think it's best to find the true reason you want to quit, and then just slowly plan it from there. Maybe eat meat only on weekends or something, or do what I did, limit your meat options.

I don't like to get in conversations about my reasoning though. In fact I HATE when I have to deal with questions from meat eaters asking about it. My Dad jokes everytime I'm in the room and he's cooking meat about whether I want some of his meal...EVERYTIME. F off dude, I'll do what I wanttt

I have to say though, IMO I do feel like it's more natural to see a evolved species like we have today, moving towards not eating meat. I have no problems with people who want meat the rest of their lives, but I just feel like if were on a planet where it IS possible to be vegetarian, and not have any health effects from it, how is that not the less primitive step in our dietary evolution. Hmmm, eat fruit or veggies from a seemingly unconscious plant, that for the most part grow back every year, or eat an animal that has to be fed food and raised for years at a time and seems pretty damn conscious of it's existence if you ask me.

Idk, it's a funny situation to look at. The more I move towards never consuming meat, the more I think it's so weird when I see people cooking meat for dinner.

[Jonse]

The thing I never understand with veganism for ethical purposes (disregarding not supporting the meat industry, I can understand that) is why there's any difference between plants and animals. I don't get it, if something can move around and make noise when it's being killed, does that somehow make it more alive? That's like letting some sort of stimuli influence you when logically it isn't any different, similar to those who are against abortion because they see an embryo that has legs and arms, and even though there's no brain activity the imagery persuades them that it's somehow a person.


Well, so long as the method of killing the animal is something like a gunshot to the head, I see no difference between killing an animal and killing a plant. Either way you are removing a living thing from the planet by murdering it, with a few exceptions like fruit. Shouldn't the concern of vegans be more along the lines of seeking regulation that prevents companies from raising/slaughtering animals in unethical ways as opposed to suggesting everyone just stops eating meat altogether? Frankly that's like if I asked you to stop wearing socks or stop using shampoo for the rest of your life.

[coffee grapes]

If you're saying you'd also eat dog meat, cat meat, and horse meat too, maybe I could see your point, but otherwise I feel there is a huge difference in killing an animal and a plant. Maybe not a chicken, cause they are just dumb as hell, but I've known someone with a pig who raised it like a pet, and it was brilliant like a smart dog. And although I'm not certain, I'm sure there are cases with cattle too. Animals can do human like activities. I can watch a pet pig be happy about something. I can watch a pig run away in fear as you threaten it with physical violence. A plant doesn't react to you killing it, at least not on a level we can sense. Animals, if beaten to death, do react.

[Cupz]

[Jonse]

If you're saying you'd also eat dog meat, cat meat, and horse meat too, maybe I could see your point, but otherwise I feel there is a huge difference in killing an animal and a plant. Maybe not a chicken, cause they are just dumb as hell, but I've known someone with a pig who raised it like a pet, and it was brilliant like a smart dog. And although I'm not certain, I'm sure there are cases with cattle too. Animals can do human like activities. I can watch a pet pig be happy about something. I can watch a pig run away in fear as you threaten it with physical violence. A plant doesn't react to you killing it, at least not on a level we can sense. Animals, if beaten to death, do react.

If I were in a country with a culture where eating those sort of meats are normal, I'd have no problem eating any of them if I were served them at a restaurant. I'd be a bit iffy with dog meat and cat meat simply because I don't expect them to taste good or have good texture. Horse meat I have had before and quite enjoyed.

There's not really a difference between eating a dog and eating a cow. There's just a cultural point of view. As far as I'm concerned an animal is an animal, the only exception I'll make is for humans, because I would refuse to eat one of my own race even if I were to starve.

Who said anything about beating an animal to death? Last I checked that would be totally inefficient when it comes to slaughtering an animal for food, and of course a torturous way of slaughtering an animal like that would be completely wrong, as would executing a condemned criminal in the same fashion be as well.