Vegetarianism/confusion

[coffee grapes]

just realized i misunderstood your post. I would say yes, that is the better solution and is mainly what I and most vegans probably are supportive of. I don't care if meat is on this planet, and being dressed in many delicious and mouth watering ways, if every cow, chicken, lamb, duck, moose, deer, etc could live a cool decent life, connecting with nature, and harboring its knowledge for its ancestral ways of life, before BAM, becoming a nice delicious steak on a plate, i would be quite down for that. I am just not down for animals being put in very unnatural ways of life, where they are witnessing the most absolute horrible ways of mechanized and industrialed cancers systems we've set up on this planet.

[coffee grapes]

Who said anything about beating an animal to death? Last I checked that would be totally inefficient when it comes to slaughtering an animal for food, and of course a torturous way of slaughtering an animal like that would be completely wrong, as would executing a condemned criminal in the same fashion be as well.

I believe in other parts of the world, they whip them by their tails at the ground, before removing their coats, then harvesting their meat. could be wrong tho

[Jonse]

Who said anything about beating an animal to death? Last I checked that would be totally inefficient when it comes to slaughtering an animal for food, and of course a torturous way of slaughtering an animal like that would be completely wrong, as would executing a condemned criminal in the same fashion be as well.

I believe in other parts of the world, they whip them by their tails at the ground, before removing their coats, then harvesting their meat. could be wrong tho

Oh well fuck those guys.

I've always been against those fur trade sort of people.

[Syberia]

"Claiming that we are meat-eaters when we obviously have such a problem with it that we like other to do it for us, (generally speaking). " - I also like driving, but I'd much rather trust Audi to make my car than attempt to build one myself.

I have no doubt that your vegan diet is great - healthy, nutritious. I just happen to believe that meat and animal products are the best source of some of the things we need.

You've clearly made an informed choice about your diet on ethical grounds, I just have an issue with the way you present the alternative as inhumane. There are plenty animals out there which would eat me given the opportunity; and I'm pretty certain that slaughtering me on a humane manner wouldn't be high on their agenda

There are definitely issues around the ways in which we rear and slaughter animals (not to mention distribute and sell and recent issues in Europe have highlighted). I'm all for ensuring that the animals I do eat are as ethically looked after as possible, I just didn't like some of the analogies used in your initial post. I don't like being preached to

But you are missing my point completely. The reason you don't build your own car is probably because you don't have the education and interest to do so, but I believe that letting someone else slaughter the animal you eat has other reasons. I don't know about you in person, you might not have a problem with it but the majority of the people that I have asked if they would be able to look in to an animals' eyes and then kill it, says "no". So again, my point is that if we were hunters - why do we have this feelings?

Another aspect to it is the fact that we can't just hunt down an animal and eat it raw with fur and all, like other hunting animals do. On the other hand we have a highly developed colour vision, allowing us to spot fruit from a far distance. We also have hands that are perfect for scaling fruit. By that I don't mean that we should eat only fruit and I can definitely buy the theory that we have developed the way we have because we started to eat meat. But I don't think we are like wolfs or lions. We are more like pigs, in fact our genetic structures are almost identical and pigs are like us able to eat and digest lots of different types of food.

The difference is that an animal would never put you in a small cage where you will spend your life without sunlight, taking you away from your mother and feeding you only dry food, pumping you with growth hormones and antibiotics. They would not hit and electrify you if you couldn’t move fast enough and they would not transport you hundreds of miles without food and water packed with hundreds of other humans just to slaughter you. I feel that we, as a more superior and intelligent race, have a responsibility. We can choose to eat less or no meat but we keep overconsuming it and that’s just not sustainable.
I get and accept the way nature works and that some creatures have to die for others. I'm just against the systematic torture we exercise on the animals year after year. Since people demand more meat for a lower price the animal handling is just getting worse and I'm sorry, but I would not just stand quiet in a corner looking when it happens. I get that you don't support the industries and I get that it's annoying and that you get offended when I critisize your diet, it was never my intention to make this personal against you. You seem like a reasonable person.

[Treefingers]

So again, my point is that if we were hunters - why do we have this feelings?

I'd argue that that's due to socialisation of humans rather than us not being natural hunters. There's little about humanity now that is - strictly speaking - natural, we've built up civilisations and societies as a means of distancing ourselves from that.

I agree your point still stands, though -- even as an occasional meat-eater. I think that farming, at its best and most idealistic, allows us to make use of animals for meat and dairy and general animal produce, while offering them the protection - on a relatively temporary basis, of course - that is offered by human civilisation. Of course, as it is now, capitalism and the law of supply-and-demand has unfortunately led us to a point where animals are mechanically killed and reared with the intent to sell and to sell quickly.

I understand there are probably other environmental issues even with my proposed best-case scenario, but that's sort of a rambling account of my general feelings where this issue is concerned. [/i]

[Fireal420]

I have always been a serious carnivore, but during the past year or two I have started worrying about animal rights and feeling very guilty about my meat-eating.

I'm not sure what do. I don't ever feel worse than immediately post-lamb chops, but I don't know how to start making the conversion to vegetarianism because have spent my life believing that meat is absolutely delicious.

I'm confused and sad and lonely and HELP ME!!!!!!!

that was exactly how i felt. a little over 2 years ago i began to feel strange while eating meat. i would be eating chicken off of the bone and think, holy shit this is a birds wing.

over time i began to feel more and more guilty. not only for eating animals (whom i love), but thinking about the poor conditions a lot of the animals have to live in.

and i finally got to the point where i said, i am not going to do this anymore. and i stopped.


its been almost 2 years since ive eaten meat. the last time i ate it was in july 2011. i still eat fish, mainly because i need to try and get protein from somewhere, and its not the best on your body to just quit meat entirely. so i still eat cheese, eggs, and fish. but no meat.

anyway. it been one of the best decisions ive made. and if you have been feeling guilty about eating meat, then you will feel better over time, once you stop.

[Syberia]

So again, my point is that if we were hunters - why do we have this feelings?

I'd argue that that's due to socialisation of humans rather than us not being natural hunters. There's little about humanity now that is - strictly speaking - natural, we've built up civilisations and societies as a means of distancing ourselves from that.

I agree your point still stands, though -- even as an occasional meat-eater. I think that farming, at its best and most idealistic, allows us to make use of animals for meat and dairy and general animal produce, while offering them the protection - on a relatively temporary basis, of course - that is offered by human civilisation. Of course, as it is now, capitalism and the law of supply-and-demand has unfortunately led us to a point where animals are mechanically killed and reared with the intent to sell and to sell quickly.

I understand there are probably other environmental issues even with my proposed best-case scenario, but that's sort of a rambling account of my general feelings where this issue is concerned. [/i]

Yeah, always hard to know what's natural or not, and really what does the word mean, it's hard to define. I still think that empathy is something great that we humans have developed and something that I think we should build our society upon.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying "offering them the protection"? Can you explain that?

[TaoTapeTao]

The thing I never understand with veganism for ethical purposes (disregarding not supporting the meat industry, I can understand that) is why there's any difference between plants and animals. I don't get it, if something can move around and make noise when it's being killed, does that somehow make it more alive? That's like letting some sort of stimuli influence you when logically it isn't any different, similar to those who are against abortion because they see an embryo that has legs and arms, and even though there's no brain activity the imagery persuades them that it's somehow a person.


Well, so long as the method of killing the animal is something like a gunshot to the head, I see no difference between killing an animal and killing a plant. Either way you are removing a living thing from the planet by murdering it, with a few exceptions like fruit. Shouldn't the concern of vegans be more along the lines of seeking regulation that prevents companies from raising/slaughtering animals in unethical ways as opposed to suggesting everyone just stops eating meat altogether? Frankly that's like if I asked you to stop wearing socks or stop using shampoo for the rest of your life.

The difference lies in the method not the organism. Plants (I believe) don't have the ability to feel pain... Based on this assumption and the way they are grown for food, there is no mistreatment or terrible living conditions or suffering. Factory Farm Animals are raised in absolute shit conditions.

Though if I'm wrong about the plants feeling pain thing, then I'm wrong. But still the difference lies in how they're treated. But the bottom line is people need to eat something, whether it's plant or animal.

And I would for sure eat human if it was necessary for me to live and I didn't know the person or contribute to killing them. The only reason one would refuse in such a situation is for moral/cultural reasons and in certain situations it makes more sense to depart from these traditions.

[Syberia]

but otherwise I feel there is a huge difference in killing an animal and a plant. Maybe not a chicken, cause they are just dumb as hell, but I've known someone with a pig who raised it like a pet, and it was brilliant like a smart dog.

Sorry if I overreact now but chickens are hatched in machines with no safety and warmth from a mother. Their life start with pain when their beaks are burned of without anaesthesia. They are literally thrown out in big hangars with thousands of other chickens, no sunlight and no natural food. They are pumped with growth hormones and their life are just total chaos from start till end. I can imagine humans would have been just as "dumb" as chickens if they where held under the same circumstances.

I grown up with hens and chickens and if they have a small pack with a cock and are able to be outside picking for worms they are actually very nice animals with different personalities.
I also grown up with cats, dogs, rabbits, birds, mouses, horses and pigs and if you live close to them and let them be and live like they are meant to be they are all very intelligent and individual.
But I agree with you on the rest..

[MadameChaos]

I have always been a serious carnivore, but during the past year or two I have started worrying about animal rights and feeling very guilty about my meat-eating.

I'm not sure what do. I don't ever feel worse than immediately post-lamb chops, but I don't know how to start making the conversion to vegetarianism because have spent my life believing that meat is absolutely delicious.

I'm confused and sad and lonely and HELP ME!!!!!!!

Hmm I see. I tell you what you do, whenever you feel like eating a lamb chop look at this picture.



Dooonn't eeeaatttt meeeeeeeehhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aw, look at his little face.

[Treefingers]

So again, my point is that if we were hunters - why do we have this feelings?

I'd argue that that's due to socialisation of humans rather than us not being natural hunters. There's little about humanity now that is - strictly speaking - natural, we've built up civilisations and societies as a means of distancing ourselves from that.

I agree your point still stands, though -- even as an occasional meat-eater. I think that farming, at its best and most idealistic, allows us to make use of animals for meat and dairy and general animal produce, while offering them the protection - on a relatively temporary basis, of course - that is offered by human civilisation. Of course, as it is now, capitalism and the law of supply-and-demand has unfortunately led us to a point where animals are mechanically killed and reared with the intent to sell and to sell quickly.

I understand there are probably other environmental issues even with my proposed best-case scenario, but that's sort of a rambling account of my general feelings where this issue is concerned. [/i]

Yeah, always hard to know what's natural or not, and really what does the word mean, it's hard to define. I still think that empathy is something great that we humans have developed and something that I think we should build our society upon.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying "offering them the protection"? Can you explain that?

Protection's a weird word for it, I guess -- but I mean that they wouldn't be threatened so much by 'natural' threats (the cold, predators, the need to find their own food, etc.), though there is the singular inevitability of farm usage.

[vballs]

I have always been a serious carnivore, but during the past year or two I have started worrying about animal rights and feeling very guilty about my meat-eating.

I'm not sure what do. I don't ever feel worse than immediately post-lamb chops, but I don't know how to start making the conversion to vegetarianism because have spent my life believing that meat is absolutely delicious.

I'm confused and sad and lonely and HELP ME!!!!!!!

Hows it going?

I recommend trialling a vegetarian diet for a week just to see how it goes.

I've been doing this for nearly three weeks now and so far so good. If you cannot bare to give up meat id say always try to buy fresh from the butchers as opposed to mass processed stuff for a start.

[louise]

eat fish, eggs and veg like meeee. i find i feel much better physically than when i used to eat meat way back when. i dont ever crave meat or anything, but i used to live near a slaughterhouse as a kid & it was enough to put me off for life to be honest. seriously, go and walk past one at delivery time. bleeeuuughhhh. you'll never eat meat again :'(

that being said, my brother tried to be vegetarian, lasted two months and went mad and ending up eating his bodyweight in red meat in one weekend haha. do whatever you feel, if you try to stop something & you really dont want to itll never work. cut it out gradually maybe?

[Little Cloud]

I've Been having similar thoughts recently, still eating meat but just trying to figure out what is actually going on and what to do. Information is such an ocean these days its easy to get lost in it all, how can opposing statements both be true? I've come to the conclusion that this mass production of meat is unsustainable and we must seriously start thinking about changing from this culture or gluttony and attitudes of "I'll have whatever I want, fuck the consequences" (not that i'm implying any of you are like that) but, it does seem to be the prevailing mind set in society (UK anyway). I recently found this presentation on the subject by Richard Oppenlander, packed with information, he makes alot of very good points, hope you find it interesting; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fws0f9s4Bas

[diabolous616]

My girlfriend has been a vegetarian her whole life, she was raised vegetarian by her parents.
I on the other hand was raised with meat in my diet however i decided to try vegetarian lifestyle
and actually maintained it for 5 years during my late teens before switching back.

Those 5 years taught me the value of the food i eat and that meat doesn't always need to be the centre point of a meal, i am much more careful with the meat products i purchase and i eat a lot less meat and dairy.

The 'meat-free' substitutes such as the Quorn range are pretty tasty and low in fat so i don't really mind cooking up veggie meals for me and the girlfriend... but i do love a proper bacon sarnie

[pianoforte]

Hows it going?

Well, I've decided I'm going to do it. For real this time. Long story short, I came across an absolutely disgusting news story online involving a really sick person and a kitten, and I was so angry. And then I realized that I can't really be angry about that while eating a double bacon cheeseburger. I'm doing it this time. Time to spend an awful lot of time reading Laurel's Kitchen, haha

I recommend trialling a vegetarian diet for a week just to see how it goes.

I've been doing that this week. It's going surprisingly well.

Hmm I see. I tell you what you do, whenever you feel like eating a lamb chop look at this picture.



Dooonn't eeeaatttt meeeeeeeehhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aw, look at his little face.

Ugh, OK. Thanks.

[FernieCanto]

As much as I respect and fully endorse people who choose to be vegetarians/vegans, there are still things about this matter that bother me. I mean, plants are life too. If animals deserve rights, if animals have the right not to suffer and die just to satisfy our petty needs, doesn't the same thing apply to all life? Many militant vegetarians try to make omnivores feel guilty for treating animals as being "below" humans, calling it discrimination and such. But that would be only coherent if people making that accusation refused to eat any living thing.

To me, veganism and vegetarianism are not without incoherences and inconsistencies. By no means I think they are invalid choices, but I still refuse to go on a guilt trip for the sake of things that don't make too much sense after all. Nature is cruel and, want it or not, we are part of it. It's true that we are able to make things a little better for the planet and use our common sense to avoid excesses and cruelty, but to me, anything beyond that starts to become delusions of grandeur. The cycle of life is much bigger than any of us.

[jcnporter]

To me, whether someone chooses to eat meat or not is a personal issue, according to what that person is comfortable with. I don't think it stands up as a universal moral issue, for reasons already stated - that is, the food chain is part of nature.
I think the issue, from the point of view of health and damage to the environment, should be more one of what is natural for us to eat. Meat, vegetables, fruit and nuts, naturally produced, have been staples of our diet throughout our history.
What is not natural, does by far the most damage to our bodies and are extremely damaging to the environment are processed foods, particularly grains and to an extent dairy using modern farming methods. This applies to all diets, whether carnivorous, vegetarian or vegan.
Unfortunately we are wedded to modern farming methods and the modern grain-based diet in order to feed our population numbers cheaply, just as we are wedded to many other aspects of modern life that we consider to be evolved and efficient but are anything but - for example, I believe that the highest nutritional yield per acre of land is achieved via permaculture, specifically a forest garden (I noticed in another thread that some posters have studied permaculture, so I'm happy to be corrected on this).
Huge amounts of energy are required to produce our modern foods and give us a choice - it may not be too far in the future that we lose the luxury of choice.

Edit to add - central to most of our problems, I believe, is our increasing separation from nature. On topic, I think this should mean that everyone should be aware of exactly how their food is produced and make decisions based on that.

[jcnporter]

Yeah, always hard to know what's natural or not, and really what does the word mean, it's hard to define. I still think that empathy is something great that we humans have developed and something that I think we should build our society upon.

I'm not sure what you mean by saying "offering them the protection"? Can you explain that?

I don't think we have developed empathy, as I understand it is hard-wired into us. It is also observed in other animals. However so is eating other animals. Morally it's not a one-sided issue. Vast swathes of rainforest are cleared to grow soya beans, for example. The destruction may be more indirect, but it is there.

[jcnporter]

I keep getting recommended 'The Food Revolution' by John Robbins and 'The Vegetarian Myth' by Lierre Keith as good reads for and against vegetarianism. I haven't read either yet myself.