America (Obamacare and the government shutdown)

mechanismj · Post by **mechanismj** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:25 pm

My thoughts...

For every action, there is an equal or opposite reaction. There is no good without evil.

Any thoughts? I'd love to hear from folks outside of America about the mess we've created here.

Techboy · Post by **Techboy** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:32 pm

yeah hi, scottish here. everybody i know thinks that your entire country is ridiculous.
what is with people being so against obamacare? it seems like no us citizens actually understand what it is... it's not medicaid or something like that, is it? it's just some relatively minor regulation of an existing business model. i absolutely do not understand why decent human beings are having a hissy fit over it. i can understand why republicans are though... that entire party's shit should surely be illegal. when our civil servants take bribes to get things passed into law they get their face printed all over newspapers and usually fired.
well there you go, i dont know a lot about us politics but what i do know just makes me really upset that you guys are such a superpower.

Noumenon · Post by **Noumenon** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 6:21 pm

I don't know all the details, but I think the act forces some businesses to spend more on healthcare benefits for employees. This hurts some small businesses that don't make a lot of profit because it makes employees more expensive, and some of those businesses will have to let go of employees just to cover the increased cost. This isn't a post against or in favor of the act, it's just something I heard while listening to NPR that I thought might be informative. A lot of this political and financial stuff goes over my head, so I tend to just stay away from it.

And sorry to be a little off topic, but it's kind of interesting how the shutdown affects certain seemingly unrelated things. For example, breweries can't get any new beers approved during the shutdown because the approval process goes through a federal bureau. What a pity!

Waterbagel · Post by **Waterbagel** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:30 am

As far as I can tell, it just seems like "right idea, poor execution".

Plus, my job (grocery store) cut all part time to no more than 24 hours to get around the benefits thing, assuming it's directly related to all this.

mechanismj · Post by **mechanismj** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 5:35 am

Waterbagel wrote:As far as I can tell, it just seems like "right idea, poor execution".

Plus, my job (grocery store) cut all part time to no more than 24 hours to get around the benefits thing, assuming it's directly related to all this.

See, that's the funny (sad) thing. I've heard that the federal government funds this whole thing and it costs the states absolutely nothing for at least three years? Is that true? If so, why are employers already pulling this shit? And yes, I think we all knew that would happen eventually.

Negamuse · Post by **Negamuse** » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:43 am

mechanismj wrote:
Waterbagel wrote:As far as I can tell, it just seems like "right idea, poor execution".

Plus, my job (grocery store) cut all part time to no more than 24 hours to get around the benefits thing, assuming it's directly related to all this.
See, that's the funny (sad) thing. I've heard that the federal government funds this whole thing and it costs the states absolutely nothing for at least three years? Is that true? If so, why are employers already pulling this shit? And yes, I think we all knew that would happen eventually.

They're basically taking it out on their employees to try and convince (or force) their employees to vote against their own interests. Neoliberal economics is a magnet for greedy unscrupulous bastards, and it's no surprise to see exploitative business owners try and fuck over their staff in the name of greed.

North by North · Post by **North by North** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 4:43 pm

It forces EVERYONE to have health insurance- so if you're unemployed, you can't fly beneath the radar without insurance. And for those people who have their own private plans (not through an employer), a lot of people are seeing their rates shoot up or their plans no longer being offered due to Obamacare. A 57 year-old friend of my mother had this happen to her- she had a nice plan and was on budget until her carrier informed her the plan was being discontinued due to Obamacare. Her only other option was a plan that was $350 more a month- seriously putting her over her monthly budget. Although she was told she'd get several maternity benefits- but at 57, it's likely her procreating days are over...

Once again, the middle class gets fucked- the poor get it for free, the rich don't care (I hear government officials are exempt from all of this) and the middle class picks up the tab- once again.

I'm no expert on this, and I'm not Republican or Democrat, so I don't favor either side. And I could be wrong on some of my information.

Anyone know more? The company I work for was sold, so I'm out of work at the moment and my COBRA coverage will end in 6 months- so I hope I don't have to pay hundreds more a month for a plan...

A_Northern_Soul · Post by **A_Northern_Soul** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 7:58 pm

The more I hear about the US healthcare system, the more I want to cling onto the NHS for dear life...

OverTheHorizonRadar · Post by **OverTheHorizonRadar** » Fri Oct 18, 2013 9:25 pm

Not knowing a whole lot myself, how does this all work out in Europe and such? Isn't everyone pretty much ok, just at the cost of higher taxes overall? That doesn't sound like a bad trade-off to me, but it sounds like Obamacare doesn't really implement that sort of a thing. I dunno, I'm pretty naive when it comes to this stuff

nick47 · Post by **nick47** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 1:01 am

So I am a government contractor and was fucked by this shutdown. Very unhappy about the whole situation. One of the worst things is, federal employees who were furloughed are getting back pay. Defeats the purpose of a shutdown if you pay half the people for not doing any work right?

Cupz · Post by **Cupz** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 12:53 pm

We have a similar health care system here in the Netherlands. And, yes according to allot of others we have the best health-care in the world (though thats going down the gutter with light-speed). As soon as you're 18, you're obligated to fork over a minimum of 100 euros a month, and that means you aren't insured for anything. I hardly go to the doc, but when I do I have to pay most of the care myself due to "own-risk". People spend a bare-minimum of 1200 euros a year worth of insurance, yet if you only need health care under 350 euros, you pretty much pay for all the health care yourself and the insurance becomes pointless and expensive.

And even still, we as a country spend more on health care then we put in, mostly due to throwing away anything that isn't new (second hand medicine anyone?) and trying to keep every-fucking-body-alive far beyond their expiration date. Some people should just die

Also, I would be ok with obligated health care, but can't we make life easier and have it go off your income as taxes automatically so I don't have to think about it anymore? Don't they do that in Denmark and Canada? Doesn't that actually work REALLY well?

mr3 · Post by **mr3** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 6:16 pm

To me history helps here, and it's a good representative view of what goes down in general. America (Britain also for that matter) had a viable, working, private health care system up through the midish-20th century that almost no one talks about anymore. Fraternal orders of all kinds provided collective power for common citizens to have access to doctors for very reasonable rates. Older generations in my family took part in this for years. Many orders also provided that same kind of access (even free in many cases) in hospital form. The vast majority of people had access because service was lean (it was just doctors and patients) and costs were low.

Things started to change though when the other side began forming collective power. The driving mentality in a lot of cases was something along the lines of 'why should common and especially lower-class citizens dictate price to professionals?'. Yeah, many of these were people who swore an oath to dedicate their lives to preserving life. Some of them were organizations formed to support them, and so in my book they took that same oath. They used collective power not to increase rights for doctors but increase price and control access to doctors' services. Things started seriously going south when these groups formed special interest influence on the government. Soon enough, regulation backed them.

What might have been unexpected though was the unintended consequences of forming an artificially expanse market. Businesses devoted to providing insurance exploded since demand was artificially created there by members of the health care profession and the government. That's when things really started to go wrong. It set the stage for epic battles between health care providers and insurance providers. Patients lost representation.

In essence, the government allowing itself to be co-opted by the power of special interest trumped the collective power of individuals. Everything was great and could have likely continued so otherwise.

When you trace the influence of special interest, it winds up being the single greatest reason for the worst aspects of civics. There was a notion forming around the turn of the 19th-20th century that the power of people would always tend to be trumped by money-backed special interest...in labor. The idea was revolutionary but comically short-sighted. It's not just labor markets or even markets in general where collective people power tends to be trumped by money-backed special interest, it's across the board. We as common people don't tend to maximize our power like money-backed special interest does. We don't usually devote our lives to it, and when others do, the power generated--since it's not directly generated by the people it's supposed to serve--often detaches itself and develops its own goals, losing people in the process. And stepping back, the ultimate money-backed power is the main force enabling those powers to exert themselves to begin with--government itself.

Look at American government right now. Look deeply. Up to half of it is forming a government-backed slave plantation big enough to hold all of its citizens (most of them willingly) under the guise of social support, and up to half is allowing the power of business to own them as commodities. Most of the rest exert power through financial policy. Americans aren't like English at least--they don't tend to take an active role in watching their government. There's this mentality that because things were great before that they'll continue to be. It not only enables people to be completely detached from the goings-on of government, it enables many others to adopt the ideas provided only on the surface, the biggest of which are two-party arguments. Anyone in America buying the concept of one main party being better than the other is woefully detached from what is really going on. Meanwhile, the government, its main parties, and major special interest continues to increase ownership of the people. The idea that Americans want health care is as comical as the sentiment in most other countries--willing indentured servants tend to want many things and tend to get none of them.

When a front-page NYT article quoting members of the US executive branch as saying things like "we have checks and balances within the Executive Branch to ensure [power is not abused]" causes no more than 1% of Americans to see that for the sheer alarm bell that it is (checks and balances in the US were formed through the existence of **separate branches**), things aren't going to get any better soon. America is failing basic Civics. And any country that thinks its doing significantly better is demonstrably not doing much better at all. This financial crisis should have made that obvious.

jcnporter · Post by **jcnporter** » Sat Oct 19, 2013 7:34 pm

^Great post, lots of oft-ignored points.

paul · Post by **paul** » Mon Oct 28, 2013 11:28 pm

nick47 wrote:So I am a government contractor and was fucked by this shutdown. Very unhappy about the whole situation. One of the worst things is, federal employees who were furloughed are getting back pay. Defeats the purpose of a shutdown if you pay half the people for not doing any work right?

i'm with you brother. 2.5 weeks of unpaid forced leave and we didn't know when we would be recalled so its not like we could make the best of it and run off for an impromptu vacation (i wanted to run off to Yosemite but doh - closed).

what this is is essentially a bunch of white greasy filthy fucking frat-boys on the hill who don't like Obama and want another civil war. they say "Americans wont stand for this" you mean a bunch of hillbilly's in that deadzone between the east and west coast. it is important to know this plan has saved millions of people who are less fortunate. the teabaggers are afraid this will be the success that it is turning out to be. if this is supposed to be a great country then when you are more fortunate and have it all (like good healthcare) ... you don't look at the less fortunate, shrug, and say "i'm good" then vote to not help them.

so the minges who started this thing not only were paid for NOT doing their jobs, they also bet AGAINST the US. funny little thing about that skin tag named Ted Cruz is that the filthy cunt is married to another filthy cunt. you see, his wife is a managing director at Goldmann Sachs. they knew they were going into shutdown, sold their stocks, and bet against their own country. they made money on this - while the rest of us lost it. so these fuckers arent just klansmen in suits - they are also traitors and crooks who as usual crush the innocent but also set off a wave of economic stress around the world.

Bill Maher's monologue sums it up: he joked "the Republican Party issued a statement: 'if only one poor kid didn't get a free inhaler - then it was worth it.' "

i hope this little stunt puts the last nail in that fucked up party's coffin. but the previous post is the most important - forget politics - who controls it all? the politicians are all sell outs to the big interests which a cute euphemism for the Banks. you want power - forget politics. go into banking.

the new album has never been more relevant.

sorry for the rant - i wrote this on pay the rent day. cooler heads please resume the discussion.

Headphase · Post by **Headphase** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:09 pm

Headphase · Post by **Headphase** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 12:09 pm

Just so you guys know, I was joking. Family Guy sucks and Britain and America are both amazing countries

Jonse · Post by **Jonse** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 3:03 pm

First of all: Family Guy is in no way indicative of people from the United States and please get that nationalistic shit out of here, be it a joke or not. You can't even quote yourself man, it's not 4chan, we can see that it's you.

Secondly: Here are my thoughts - I've decided not to give a flying fuck about any of this political shit that's going down right now. This is just the cumulative chaos of decades of partisan politics and I could not possibly care less because the people who are in charge of creating legislation for this country are insane. This world is shit...but I didn't get to choose where I'd be born on the great big server browser of planets, so whatever, I'll just sit back on a recliner and listen to music while everyone else loses their goddamn minds at particular times depending on which party they belong to.

Lens Larque · Post by **Lens Larque** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 9:44 pm

Does one sit in a recliner or do they sit on one?

Jonse · Post by **Jonse** » Sun Nov 03, 2013 10:06 pm

Lens Larque wrote:Does one sit in a recliner or do they sit on one?

I don't see it possible for a 6'4" person to sit inside of a physical object such as a recliner without it being of abnormal size.

Lens Larque · Post by **Lens Larque** » Mon Nov 04, 2013 2:17 am

more about yourself please!