Ukraine

A_Northern_Soul · Post by **A_Northern_Soul** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 5:51 pm

What a mess - this doesn't look like it can end well at all. Worst case scenario - some people seem to determined to mark the 100th anniversary of WW1 with a re-enactment.

While I don't *think* we'll get as far as the "buckets-of-instant-sunshine" outcome, I think it could still get very very nasty.

Not sure of we have any board members out there, but take care if so...

A_Northern_Soul · Post by **A_Northern_Soul** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 8:30 pm

And off we go....

StormedZone · Post by **StormedZone** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:22 pm

These articles might be of interest
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-monuments-nazi-symbols-645/

People outside of all of the news seem to ignore this stuff, like its not even happening

Mexicola · Post by **Mexicola** » Fri Feb 28, 2014 9:40 pm

So here we go then. Start painting your windows white, take iodine tablets with your breakfast and stockpiling dried food. Or maybe not..

We've long known that Putin doesn't give two tits what the anyone else thinks, including the so-called 'World's last superpower' but he knows he's on safe ground. He's effectively calling the (barely noticeable) bluff of the west, knowing full well that no response will come. Seriously, what influence can the World realistically exert?

Still, could be worse. At least the Inter-Continental Ballistic Moron (Dubya) is safely packed away in his box these days. The only button he'll be pushing is the one marked 'Food' or 'Water' next to the little wheel in his cage.

Tweet from Garry Kasperov about Obama's speech tonight: 'Obama refused to call it an invasion by Russia or say what action US would support to defend Ukrainian integrity. Leading from behind.'

'Most relevantly and recently, backing down from promise to act with force vs Assad in Syria. Dictators watched, Putin watched.'

fujee · Post by **fujee** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:36 pm

So Russia are going in

Mexicola · Post by **Mexicola** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 5:08 pm

World leaders lining up to show 'concern'.
Phew, for a minute I thought they wouldn't be doing anything about it...

fujee · Post by **fujee** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:08 pm

In some strange way, it all seems like its been building to this since 91'

Mexicola · Post by **Mexicola** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:17 pm

Friends with people who visited Ukraine back just before the Iron Curtain came down and the locals they met said this would happen one day. That was around 1989.

fujee · Post by **fujee** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:57 pm

I guess you could say that about any big historical event but yeah this feels eerily familiar. I would like to think Putin is just sabre rattling though, he's not that stupid right?

Jonse · Post by **Jonse** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:32 pm

Putin is waving his dick around.

That is all.

The United States doesn't need to participate in any more dick waving, so I hope no "support" will be provided. Looking to the past: when supporting another country that's right next to another country comprised of the most insane dictatorship on the planet earth would have likely been helpful, the US federal government opted to focus on stupid bullshit. As such, I have zero faith in them whatsoever and really don't care to hear about whether or not Obama's going to do anything. This has nothing to do with the United States inherently and shouldn't, as well as US President Model No. 0044's speech or phone call to the dickwaver so they can wave dicks at each other. Just because the presidential administrations and the congress - effectively the political landscape post-WWII increasingly began to think interventionism was necessary - doesn't mean it is.

StormedZone wrote:These articles might be of interest
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-monuments-nazi-symbols-645/

People outside of all of the news seem to ignore this stuff, like its not even happening

People? As in the general public? As in "YouTube average comments tier" people? Of course, most of them are dumb as fuck. They're more concerned with instagram, television, "vines", radio music, Xbox vs PS4 and whatever their favorite dumb fucking sport is be it football or handegg or baseball or basketball. These are the same people who, when they actually gave a shit, through parties because one dude from a radical Islamic group was dead and elected the president who went on TV to do a "victory lap" as though this was somehow progress as well as elected his predecessor who got us into this mess on foreign fronts and helped to tank our economy.

TaoTapeTao · Post by **TaoTapeTao** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 3:02 am

Rodheh wrote:Putin is waving his dick around.

That is all.

The United States doesn't need to participate in any more dick waving, so I hope no "support" will be provided. Looking to the past: when supporting another country that's right next to another country comprised of the most insane dictatorship on the planet earth would have likely been helpful, the US federal government opted to focus on stupid bullshit. As such, I have zero faith in them whatsoever and really don't care to hear about whether or not Obama's going to do anything. This has nothing to do with the United States inherently and shouldn't, as well as US President Model No. 0044's speech or phone call to the dickwaver so they can wave dicks at each other. Just because the presidential administrations and the congress - effectively the political landscape post-WWII increasingly began to think interventionism was necessary - doesn't mean it is.

StormedZone wrote:These articles might be of interest
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-right-sector-militants-210/
http://rt.com/news/ukraine-monuments-nazi-symbols-645/

People outside of all of the news seem to ignore this stuff, like its not even happening
People? As in the general public? As in "YouTube average comments tier" people? Of course, most of them are dumb as fuck. They're more concerned with instagram, television, "vines", radio music, Xbox vs PS4 and whatever their favorite dumb fucking sport is be it football or handegg or baseball or basketball. These are the same people who, when they actually gave a shit, through parties because one dude from a radical Islamic group was dead and elected the president who went on TV to do a "victory lap" as though this was somehow progress as well as elected his predecessor who got us into this mess on foreign fronts and helped to tank our economy.

You shouldn't hate on someone because they like sports. That's irrational.

Mexicola · Post by **Mexicola** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:04 am

I see John Kerry has waded in this morning.

Had to smile at him patronising Russia about foreign invasions: 'It is really a stunning, wilful choice by President Putin to invade another country. Russia is in violation of the sovereignty of Ukraine. Russia is in violation of its international obligations.'

He's right of course, but also demonstrating a stunning lack of self-awareness.

A_Northern_Soul · Post by **A_Northern_Soul** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:25 pm

^ I did think that very hypocritical, but no worse than the uber-right on Stop the War Coalition releasing a statement along the lines of "lay off Russia, it's all the big bad USA's fault". Stop the War Coalition - apparently fine with war as long as it's someone other than the US doing the invading.

I do think the map of Europe is going to be permanent altered one way or another.

Best case scenario - Ukraine's borders changed as parts of the country re-join Russia.

Worst case scenario - big new glass car park covers large parts of eastern Europe.

The response of west/NATO/EU/rest-of-the-world (hi China!) will be very interesting. Anything other than a complete climb-down by Russia would give a tacit green light to any regime seeking to "reclaim" territory (China & Taiwan anyone?). If I was the likes of Belarus & Latvia, I'd be feeling a little twitchy right now...

Incidentally - I don't recommend reading this thread while listening to Semena Mertvykh like I've just done. Bad vibes.

Mexicola · Post by **Mexicola** » Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:46 pm

This alleged ultimatum from the Russians tonight doesn't exactly calm the nerves either does it? Needless to say, they've denied making one.

I can't believe for one moment that Putin is going to roll his tanks all over Ukraine. That really would be chancing his luck for several reasons. The BS about protecting Russians is laughable - he just doesn't want to lose the Black Sea Fleet and needs a land corridor to maintain control over it. By ratcheting up tension, he puts pressure on the West to in turn pressure the interim government in Ukraine to allow some kind of autonomy for Crimea.

The threat of economic sanctions by the west are also laughably by the way and Putin knows it too. All he has to do is turn the Gazprom taps off and Europe is buggered. We might be coming out of a fairly warm Winter, but even if you ignore supplies of gas etc being choked, the last thing Western governments need is stock markets crashing and fuel prices rocketing again just as the markets look to pick up again.

Clever bloke this Putin. Devious son of a bitch.

Jonse · Post by **Jonse** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 12:06 am

TaoTapeTao wrote:You shouldn't hate on someone because they like sports. That's irrational.

I'm not. Utterly missing the point. We've got - as Mexicola said - a "devious son of a bitch" who doesn't give a shit and whose commands could potentially hurt innocent people if this isn't one giant bluff, the rest of the world apparently has zero effective input whatsoever in terms of peaceful pleas and while some people are throwing around the phrase "world war III" a little early in my opinion, this is bad period and it's probably going to get worse, and the point is that most of the world doesn't seem to give a shit and are too distracted to give a shit. Has nothing to do with sports, they're just one more distraction. I'm tense and on edge right now. My friends and family except for one person I know IRL are acting like nothing is happening and couldn't be more relaxed. People are so tremendously selfish, and it can expand to encompass those THEY love, but otherwise they don't give a flying fuck.

I've also, on top of being angry and particularly misanthropic right now, been subject to ridicule in my condemnation of what is occurring simply because of my nationality. Several people I know that are not Americans saw this as an opportune time to label me as a hypocrite because the Iraq war - something I did not CALL FOR, VOTE FOR, SUPPORT AND CONDEMN TO THIS DAY - happened. In the possible although unlikely event one of these sorts of people is on Twoism and stumbles across this thread (possibly going to be a lot more posts in two hours), I would like to take a moment to preemptively say shove it.

naicob · Post by **naicob** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:17 am

The US EU are to blame. It's a damn shame that Putin is getting all the flack for this. The hypocrisy of the west, and especially the Americans is stunning.

Jonse · Post by **Jonse** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:20 am

So great how disagreements on a level none of us really have any control over apparently justify an invasion and threat of military assault.

naicob · Post by **naicob** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:25 am

Rodheh wrote:Case in point. Latter half.

So great how disagreements on a level none of us really have any control over apparently justify an invasion and threat of military assault.

An 'invasion' which hasn't happened on behalf of a democratically elected President (Yanukovych asked for Russian military intervention) who was ousted in a violent American sponsored coup that left over 100 dead and hundreds more injured.

Total death and injuries from Russian 'invasion'? 0.

Jonse · Post by **Jonse** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:31 am

naicob wrote:
Rodheh wrote:Case in point. Latter half.

So great how disagreements on a level none of us really have any control over apparently justify an invasion and threat of military assault.
An 'invasion' which hasn't happened on behalf of a democratically elected President (Yanukovych asked for Russian military intervention) who was ousted in a violent American sponsored coup that left over 100 dead and hundreds more injured.

Total death and injuries from Russian 'invasion'? 0.

Oh, because a president, prime minister or equivalent federal leader (an impeached one, with an ARREST WARRANT) must speak for everyone in a state! Certainly hasn't been a great example of this not being the case before! Particularly not in the last 10 years or so, none at all. At any rate a request for an invasion does not alter the definition of the word.

"So in this regard I would call on the President of Russia, Mr. Putin, asking him to use the armed forces of the Russian Federation to establish legitimacy, peace, law and order, stability and defending the people of Ukraine."

~16,000 units in Crimea and an unnecessary "ultimatum". Totally not one bit excessive.

Do I really need to explain why the death toll before any military action other than mobilization is irrelevant and currently immeasurable? Seriously?

naicob · Post by **naicob** » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:46 am

Rodheh wrote:
naicob wrote:
Rodheh wrote:Case in point. Latter half.

So great how disagreements on a level none of us really have any control over apparently justify an invasion and threat of military assault.
An 'invasion' which hasn't happened on behalf of a democratically elected President (Yanukovych asked for Russian military intervention) who was ousted in a violent American sponsored coup that left over 100 dead and hundreds more injured.

Total death and injuries from Russian 'invasion'? 0.
Oh, because a president, prime minister or equivalent federal leader (an impeached one, with an ARREST WARRANT) must speak for everyone in a state! Certainly hasn't been a great example of this not being the case before! Particularly not in the last 10 years or so, none at all. At any rate a request for an invasion does not alter the definition of the word.

"So in this regard I would call on the President of Russia, Mr. Putin, asking him to use the armed forces of the Russian Federation to establish legitimacy, peace, law and order, stability and defending the people of Ukraine."

~16,000 units in Crimea and an unnecessary "ultimatum". Totally not one bit excessive.

Do I really need to explain why the death toll before any military action other than mobilization is irrelevant and currently immeasurable? Seriously?

Listen, I am from that part of the world, and I've been on this planet for a few decades longer than you.

The impeachment was illegal according to Ukrainian law. He was democratically elected. There is nothing democratic about a foreign sponsored coup. The only violence thus far has been on the part of radical protesters who have been funded directly by the Americans. Most Ukrainians do not support them (the protesters) and most view Russia positively.

You talk about the last 10 years? I'm sure you weren't born yet, but in 2003 the U.S. invaded Iraq on nothing more than cheap lies. Before that they invaded Afghanistan to fight a regime they themselves put into power, and before that they bombed Serbia for no reason other than to support Kosovar independence. If Crimea wanted to be independent of the Ukraine today, why wouldn't it warrant support? After all, the U.S. set the example for everyone else to follow. Need I mention Libya? Egypt? Syria? Pakistan? Yemen? Iran? Somalia?

And btw, it's 6000 troops from the base they have there already. They were there to begin with. Nobody invaded anyone. As for the ultimatum? It was widely reported by the war mongering western media, only to be called out as bullshit by both the Ukrainians and Russians.