Ukraine

[Jonse]

Listen, I am from that part of the world, and I've been on this planet for a few decades longer than you.

The impeachment was illegal according to Ukrainian law. He was democratically elected. There is nothing democratic about a foreign sponsored coup. The only violence thus far has been on the part of radical protesters who have been funded directly by the Americans. Most Ukrainians do not support them (the protesters) and most view Russia positively.

You talk about the last 10 years? I'm sure you weren't born yet, but in 2003 the U.S. invaded Iraq on nothing more than cheap lies. Before that they invaded Afghanistan to fight a regime they themselves put into power, and before that they bombed Serbia for no reason other than to support Kosovar independence. If Crimea wanted to be independent of the Ukraine today, why wouldn't it warrant support? After all, the U.S. set the example for everyone else to follow. Need I mention Libya? Egypt? Syria? Pakistan? Yemen? Iran? Somalia?

And btw, it's 6000 troops from the base they have there already. They were there to begin with. Nobody invaded anyone. As for the ultimatum? It was widely reported by the war mongering western media, only to be called out as bullshit by both the Ukrainians and Russians.

With "I'm sure you weren't born yet" and the (presumed on your part) age bias immediately, as well as the recollection that you were that troll in that thread about living in the woods or whatever it was, along with the rest of your incoherent nonsense it is apparent you paid no attention whatsoever to the previous posts and I should just dismiss you as a troll once again, as I'm too tense for this shit already. Ukrainian and Russian media does not universally hold your view. Protestors have been documented, statistics are statistics. Everyone here is cognisant of what occurred in Iraq and everyone I've encountered considers in abhorrent. This is where the "not paying attention" part comes in. Your trolling is both amateur and meaningless.

Waah, people disagree with me about things so I'm going to post ridiculous and unwarranted statements and exude AfA fallacies at the preface and in the middle of my posts! It's getting old. Possibly provide a citation if what you're saying goes against what almost everyone else globally is making of the situation - particularly about the ultimatum thing because denying such a statement seems exactly what an invading country would do, and also I don't see anything about the Ukrainians denouncing looking at dozens of articles and searching for it incessantly it so that'd be a citation point as well.

You're not even being open to the various potential outcomes of the current situation or what is happening. You probably just read some news source that caters to you if you're "from that part of the world" (real specific) and have decided it is fact, because obviously ALL western media has nothing to be taken into consideration to formulate an opinion.

But screw it man. For some reason the absurdity of your comment about me not being born by 2003 and the fact that you felt the need to inform someone of how the Iraq war began...Jesus, that slipped by me on the first read. From around that part of the world? Hard to believe, you must be American to be this arrogant. I'll just quote it as a response to you from now on. People actually feel like talking about this, you know.

[naicob]

With "I'm sure you weren't born yet" and the (presumed on your part) age bias immediately, as well as the recollection that you were that troll in that thread about living in the woods or whatever it was, along with the rest of your incoherent nonsense it is apparent you paid no attention whatsoever to the previous posts and I should just dismiss you as a troll once again, as I'm too tense for this shit already. Ukrainian and Russian media does not universally hold your view. Protestors have been documented, statistics are statistics. Everyone here is cognisant of what occurred in Iraq and everyone I've encountered considers in abhorrent. This is where the "not paying attention" part comes in. Your trolling is both amateur and meaningless.

Waah, people disagree with me about things so I'm going to post ridiculous and unwarranted statements and exude AfA fallacies at the preface and in the middle of my posts! It's getting old. Possibly provide a citation if what you're saying goes against what almost everyone else globally is making of the situation - particularly about the ultimatum thing because denying such a statement seems exactly what an invading country would do, and also I don't see anything about the Ukrainians denouncing looking at dozens of articles and searching for it incessantly it so that'd be a citation point as well.

You're not even being open to the various potential outcomes of the current situation or what is happening. You probably just read some news source that caters to you if you're "from that part of the world" (real specific) and have decided it is fact, because obviously ALL western media has nothing to be taken into consideration to formulate an opinion.

But screw it man. For some reason the absurdity of your comment about me not being born by 2003 and the fact that you felt the need to inform someone of how the Iraq war began...Jesus, that slipped by me on the first read. From around that part of the world? Hard to believe, you must be American to be this arrogant. I'll just quote it as a response to you from now on. People actually feel like talking about this, you know.

The ultimatum was widely reported as false today live on American TV. You can look it up, or better yet, wait for tomorrow to see if anything happens. The Ukrainian army has been deserting en masse, btw. Ukrainians view Russians positively, they are nearly identical people after all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2% ... ar_opinion

Western media is nothing more than propaganda. The funny thing is that this ultimatum story was everywhere. You know why? so that the masses can get their entertainment and tune in. That's how fucking low we are as humanity-- the thought of ww3 makes us tune in for shits and giggles and the media knows that all too well.

And yeah, I was born, grew up, and lived behind the iron curtain. I assure you, I am not American.

[Jonse]

With "I'm sure you weren't born yet" and the (presumed on your part) age bias immediately, as well as the recollection that you were that troll in that thread about living in the woods or whatever it was, along with the rest of your incoherent nonsense it is apparent you paid no attention whatsoever to the previous posts and I should just dismiss you as a troll once again, as I'm too tense for this shit already. Ukrainian and Russian media does not universally hold your view. Protestors have been documented, statistics are statistics. Everyone here is cognisant of what occurred in Iraq and everyone I've encountered considers in abhorrent. This is where the "not paying attention" part comes in. Your trolling is both amateur and meaningless.

Waah, people disagree with me about things so I'm going to post ridiculous and unwarranted statements and exude AfA fallacies at the preface and in the middle of my posts! It's getting old. Possibly provide a citation if what you're saying goes against what almost everyone else globally is making of the situation - particularly about the ultimatum thing because denying such a statement seems exactly what an invading country would do, and also I don't see anything about the Ukrainians denouncing looking at dozens of articles and searching for it incessantly it so that'd be a citation point as well.

You're not even being open to the various potential outcomes of the current situation or what is happening. You probably just read some news source that caters to you if you're "from that part of the world" (real specific) and have decided it is fact, because obviously ALL western media has nothing to be taken into consideration to formulate an opinion.

But screw it man. For some reason the absurdity of your comment about me not being born by 2003 and the fact that you felt the need to inform someone of how the Iraq war began...Jesus, that slipped by me on the first read. From around that part of the world? Hard to believe, you must be American to be this arrogant. I'll just quote it as a response to you from now on. People actually feel like talking about this, you know.

The ultimatum was widely reported as false today live on American TV. You can look it up, or better yet, wait for tomorrow to see if anything happens. The Ukrainian army has been deserting en masse, btw. Ukrainians view Russians positively, they are nearly identical people after all.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2% ... ar_opinion

Western media is nothing more than propaganda. The funny thing is that this ultimatum story was everywhere. You know why? so that the masses can get their entertainment and tune in. That's how fucking low we are as humanity-- the thought of ww3 makes us tune in for shits and giggles and the media knows that all too well.

And yeah, I was born, grew up, and lived behind the iron curtain. I assure you, I am not American.

I'll just quote it as a response to you from now on.

You talk about the last 10 years? I'm sure you weren't born yet, but in 2003

[naicob]

The 'ultimatum' has passed, btw.

[Jonse]

The 'ultimatum' has passed, btw.

And the horrible "western media" started reporting that Moscow claimed there was no ultimatum about seven hours ago, leaving time to be the deciding factor if anything happened when that particular admiral purportedly reported it would. I didn't think anything would happen and I'm still skeptical, having made my entry into this thread with "Putin is waving his dick around". That doesn't change the fact that there's thousands of russian infantry in Crimea (your "6000" number is incorrect, it is 16000) and military threats were made. That was the point here regardless of a time frame. Want to blame the US for it? It was reported in European news as well. You've also still not justified your comments about the impeached man or your fallacies but I don't expect you to.

And again, like Iraq you assume your peers on Twoism are stupid apparently and those who have heard about the ultimatum thing hadn't also heard when it was supposed to occur.

I'll just quote it as a response to you from now on.

You talk about the last 10 years? I'm sure you weren't born yet, but in 2003

[naicob]

The 'ultimatum' has passed, btw.

And the horrible "western media" started reporting that Moscow claimed there was no ultimatum about seven hours ago, leaving time to be the deciding factor if anything happened when that particular admiral purportedly reported it would. I didn't think anything would happen and I'm still skeptical, having made my entry into this thread with "Putin is waving his dick around". That doesn't change the fact that there's thousands of russian infantry in Crimea (your "6000" number is incorrect, it is 16000) and military threats were made. That was the point here regardless of a time frame. Want to blame the US for it? It was reported in European news as well. You've also still not justified your comments about the impeached man or your fallacies but I don't expect you to.

And again, like Iraq you assume your peers on Twoism are stupid apparently and those who have heard about the ultimatum thing hadn't also heard when it was supposed to occur.

I'll just quote it as a response to you from now on.

You talk about the last 10 years? I'm sure you weren't born yet, but in 2003

It was an illegal impeachment

http://www.rferl.org/content/was-yanuko ... 74346.html

The source is radio free Europe, a pro western mouthpiece.

There was no referendum or popular poll or anything of the nature to oust him. The interim PM is the exact same guy that Nuland was talking about in the taped conversation planning out the illegal coup.

It was planned from day one. Putin has a huge interest in Ukraine, not only for the very important military base, but for cultural, historical, and geopolitical reasons.

Crimea was gifted to Ukraine a few decades ago, but this was for administrative purposes only and Moscow was still in charge. After the Soviet Union collapsed things got a bit more complicated, but in every context both historical and cultural, Russia has a much better claim on it than the Ukraine. Crimeans want a referendum, but the new Ukrainian authorities have already deemed it illegal.

The first law that the new Ukrainian government passed was the banishment of the Russian language. The second was a 10 year jail term for anyone holding dual citizenship, which naturally targeted Russians. You don't think these are acts of hostility towards Russians in the Ukraine? This is what a government does to keep friendly ties with its neighbour and maintain stability in the country?

It should also be noted that the Russians have repeatedly said that they want to ensure Ukrainian territorial integrity. Not a shot has been fired. Meanwhile American ex generals on CNN are calling for nothing less than WW3. Tymoshenko, the thieving billionaire oligarch who is largely responsible for this mess has also called for western military intervention.

The so called protesters are by no means representative of the majority and have been literally paid by the west to protest. http://www.informationclearinghouse.inf ... e37599.htm

This is one of their men a jolly freedom fighter being friendly with a local prosecutor.

Oh and this guy?

He's a french 'philosopher' who happens to make an appearance before every American regime change. Libya, Syria, Serbia, yup, it's just a coincidence. Paint him a mustache, and who does he remind you of? You don't have to understand the language to get the emotional gist.

[Jonse]

Now that my anti-anxiety medication has kicked in just want to apologize to fujee, Mex, etc.

I know the forum hates this. Someone (in this case naicob) shows obvious signs of being a troll or just somehow thinks what they said was fine and doesn't understand how it would make another person be unable to ever take them seriously again. This has been showing up more and more, and you guys can ignore it. It's also horrible because when a troll acts like they've accomplished something after someone dismisses them that just makes it worse. I have horrible obsessive compulsive disorder and while I'd like to ignore it, I'm so nearly incapable of it sober because my brain keeps reminding me of how nonsensical and fallacious it is and it causes immense stress, and it's always in threads where people just want to have a conversation, and it brings an unnecessary, argumentative tone that nobody here likes including myself, it's never a good situation and the people it annoys the most are often those not engaged in it (remembering what happened with Mexicola, when he was depressed and stressed to hell and an argument on Twoism just made it worse). I never intend for this to happen but it just does, and I've tried not to cause it more and more but typically the best way to do that has been me being absent when I am sober. Even though naicob was a troll to me before, even though I've observed him being a troll to others, the situation compels me to do what is irrational because of Pure O OCD, PTSD and generalized anxiety disorder, which is to feed what others could easily ignore.

So while I have no interest in attempting to have discussions with trolls while I am medicated, I am going to try to stay out of this thread in the future for the sake of discussion among anyone who cares to actually discuss things, because otherwise it'll just be a back and forth with a troll and it will destroy the thread.

wall of text

You don't seem to understand. You've already made your trolling apparent. It is impossible for me to take anything you say seriously or believe you have any credibility in your statements. You demonstrated that you didn't pay any attention or read the posts before when you posted. You made ridiculous presumptions. While everyone else was discussing what was going to occur openly, you bluntly acted like you knew what was occurring exactly and lined your posts with fallacies. You've done this sort of thing before. That's the most polite way I can say this.

[naicob]

Now that my anti-anxiety medication has kicked in just want to apologize to fujee, Mex, etc.

I know the forum hates this. Someone (in this case naicob) shows obvious signs of being a troll or just somehow thinks what they said was fine and doesn't understand how it would make another person be unable to ever take them seriously again. This has been showing up more and more, and you guys can ignore it. I have horrible obsessive compulsive disorder and while I'd like to ignore it, I'm so nearly incapable of it sober because my brain keeps reminding me of how nonsensical and fallacious it is and it causes immense stress, and it's always in threads where people just want to have a conversation, and it brings an unnecessary, argumentative tone that nobody here likes including myself, it's never a good situation and the people it annoys the most are often those not engaged in it (remembering what happened with Mexicola, when he was depressed and stressed to hell and an argument on Twoism just made it worse). I never intend for this to happen but it just does, and I've tried not to cause it more and more but typically the best way to do that has been me being absent when I am sober. Even though naicob was a troll to me before, even though I've observed him being a troll to others, the situation compels me to do what is irrational because of Pure O OCD, PTSD and generalized anxiety disorder, which is to feed what others could easily ignore.

So while I have no interest in attempting to have discussions with trolls while I am medicated, I am going to try to stay out of this thread in the future for the sake of discussion among anyone who cares to actually discuss things, because otherwise it'll just be a back and forth with a troll and it will destroy the thread.

Read the post above yours and stop crying about your disorders. We all have em.

[Jonse]

Now that my anti-anxiety medication has kicked in just want to apologize to fujee, Mex, etc.

I know the forum hates this. Someone (in this case naicob) shows obvious signs of being a troll or just somehow thinks what they said was fine and doesn't understand how it would make another person be unable to ever take them seriously again. This has been showing up more and more, and you guys can ignore it. I have horrible obsessive compulsive disorder and while I'd like to ignore it, I'm so nearly incapable of it sober because my brain keeps reminding me of how nonsensical and fallacious it is and it causes immense stress, and it's always in threads where people just want to have a conversation, and it brings an unnecessary, argumentative tone that nobody here likes including myself, it's never a good situation and the people it annoys the most are often those not engaged in it (remembering what happened with Mexicola, when he was depressed and stressed to hell and an argument on Twoism just made it worse). I never intend for this to happen but it just does, and I've tried not to cause it more and more but typically the best way to do that has been me being absent when I am sober. Even though naicob was a troll to me before, even though I've observed him being a troll to others, the situation compels me to do what is irrational because of Pure O OCD, PTSD and generalized anxiety disorder, which is to feed what others could easily ignore.

So while I have no interest in attempting to have discussions with trolls while I am medicated, I am going to try to stay out of this thread in the future for the sake of discussion among anyone who cares to actually discuss things, because otherwise it'll just be a back and forth with a troll and it will destroy the thread.

Read the post above yours and stop crying about your disorders. We all have em.

Refer to the edit. There is no reason for me to believe you have any credibility whatsoever because of your trolling. Nobody is crying about anything, I am much more calm than I was before, and I came back to apologize to the other people in the thread. I have no interest in talking to a troll.

[naicob]

Now that my anti-anxiety medication has kicked in just want to apologize to fujee, Mex, etc.

I know the forum hates this. Someone (in this case naicob) shows obvious signs of being a troll or just somehow thinks what they said was fine and doesn't understand how it would make another person be unable to ever take them seriously again. This has been showing up more and more, and you guys can ignore it. I have horrible obsessive compulsive disorder and while I'd like to ignore it, I'm so nearly incapable of it sober because my brain keeps reminding me of how nonsensical and fallacious it is and it causes immense stress, and it's always in threads where people just want to have a conversation, and it brings an unnecessary, argumentative tone that nobody here likes including myself, it's never a good situation and the people it annoys the most are often those not engaged in it (remembering what happened with Mexicola, when he was depressed and stressed to hell and an argument on Twoism just made it worse). I never intend for this to happen but it just does, and I've tried not to cause it more and more but typically the best way to do that has been me being absent when I am sober. Even though naicob was a troll to me before, even though I've observed him being a troll to others, the situation compels me to do what is irrational because of Pure O OCD, PTSD and generalized anxiety disorder, which is to feed what others could easily ignore.

So while I have no interest in attempting to have discussions with trolls while I am medicated, I am going to try to stay out of this thread in the future for the sake of discussion among anyone who cares to actually discuss things, because otherwise it'll just be a back and forth with a troll and it will destroy the thread.

Read the post above yours and stop crying about your disorders. We all have em.

Refer to the edit. There is no reason for me to believe you have any credibility whatsoever because of your trolling. Nobody is crying about anything, I am much more calm than I was before, and I came back to apologize to the other people in the thread. I have no interest in talking to a troll.

You have no interest in talking because you're a fucking child.

[Techboy]

Okay, okay, simmer down guys. It's a heated subject and everyone has their own opinion but let's not resort to or rise to ad hominem attacks on each other, which is counter productive and immature and not conducive to either (i) a good discussion of an important international issue; or (ii) a friendly atmosphere here. naicob, FWIW your opinion is important here as you are probably closer to the facts than the rest of us, but starting a fight (distinct from a discussion or debate) with Rodheh at every possible opportunity obfuscates your posts and makes them unappealing for anyone else to read.

The best advice I ever received if you want to avoid ad hominem attacks during a debate, discussion, whatever - debate as if you are trying to convince a layperson in the audience, not as if you are trying to convince your opponent. It helps you focus exclusively on the pertinent issues of the discussion and not on each other - and the calibre of the discussion will be infinitely higher as a result.

Sooo, anyway, that aside - naicob - I see what you're saying about western involvement but it seems to me that the west are not stirring up this situation. It seems rather that the situation arised on its own, in Ukraine, and that the west are perhaps taking advantage. Whilst that isn't necessarily a great state of affairs it seems that it's just a distraction from the real issue. Those protesters who you link to are a small and negative example of a pretty substantial crowd of protesters, who were around 20,000 in number at their peak. At the end of the day Yanukovych passed anti-protest laws and used violent anti-protest methods which does seem to me (and you can understand why it would seem this way to outsiders, surely) to be against the interests of the people who elected him.

BTW I think the media knows WW3 makes people tune in, but doubt that they believe the reason is entertainment and amusement. Probably they think the reason is fear, or confusion, or curiosity. The reason doesn't matter, though, what matters is that you get those clickthroughs, cause then you get them advertising dollars.

[Mexicola]

BOTH of you - give it a rest. We don't need a board-based reenactment of the Crimean standoff.

[Hemulen]

Does this forum have an "Ignore user" feature? I would very much like to add naicob to this list.

[portiss]

World War 3 starts with Twoism, so it seems ..

[Jonse]

Does this forum have an "Ignore user" feature? I would very much like to add naicob to this list.

You know, I considered sending Aesthetics that same question but I assumed it wasn't possible with phpBB.


@Techboy - yeah, I see what he's saying too it's just that there became a point where it basically seemed pointless to try and retort or comment. I mean, you've seen what he's said. It's not like I'd expect anything else from somebody with a fringe theory on the situation that's stated to be true and then poorly sourced afterwards. That's aside from any ad-hominem quips or thinking a fellow twoismer is at most 11 years old. Also, your advice for avoiding ad-hominem is sound though I don't think it will have - or would have had much of an impact on this particular poster.


So I just, when I could possibly do so, apologized to everyone else and stopped responding to him yesterday. I see no reason to now. I'd left the thread before his last response and am just now seeing it. That's par for the course for 4chan or something but this isn't 4chan.

[Aesthetics]

Does this forum have an "Ignore user" feature? I would very much like to add naicob to this list.

There isn't a feature and I don't think we need it as well.

It's ok to disagree with someone but please respect each other. Let's have this discussion back to a respectable level.

[naicob]

Another taped phone conversation between Estonian Minister of Foreign Affairs Urmas Paet and High Representative of the European Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy Catherine Ashton.

According to Urmas Paet the Maidan protesters and Police were shot by the same snipers, and the snipers were likely working for the new government, not Yanukovych.

The western press should be all over this, but as usual they are not in the business of reporting news. I am following the 'news' form a few countries and languages, and it's stunning to see that the same lies, misinformation, and sensationalism are being reported almost everywhere in near perfect unison.

I can't wait for the denial, admission, and inexcusable reason they come up with-- just as they did with the Nuland conversation.

The Estonian Foreign Ministry has confirmed the authenticity of the conversation.

If you're not interested in listening to the entire conversation, the meaty part starts at around 8 minutes.

[Aesthetics]

I just deleted two posts because they were provocative and getting personal.

From this point on I'll delete all provocative messages with the intention of causing disruption and arguments. If it still continues I have no other choice then to lock this topic.

[Hemulen]

I'd prefer it if you deleted the whole thread.
This is "The Playground", for fuck's sake.

[arvy]

Hey! No bad intentions from me, just wanna make some joke, some people definitely trying bring bad vibes in this place, peace !