Tomorrow's harvest (last post)

lankydoom · Post by **lankydoom** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 1:52 pm

Interestingly enough the mention of finding god and becoming BFF's and sharing traditional tuesday pizza could just all equate to sitting somewhere and eating your pizza off the ground. The idea of finding what can be described as omnipotence could very well be finding yourself, or rediscovering the earth we live on.

I think nature has a power that humans will never quite understand, and we are apart of nature. So we may never quite fully understand ourselves (as a collective group, as some of us may believe we understand our personal self, I mean I know what i know and do not know about me but cannot speak for everyone).

Nature has it's way of healing, destroying, growing, using fart machines and so on. I guess as a race of creatures called humans we have our ways too which all stem from nature somehow.

The more we can understand about the rock we inhabit, the more we may discover about how to prevail through such 'humans destroying the earth disaster' most of us speak of in some way. I guess earth is not a pet that we have to feed as such or bathe or give physical things too. But we should not be so greedy in taking from it as much as we do.

From one source all things depend. I would laugh if a guy came tearing outta the sky in a fiery chariot with long white hair wielding a book of concrete screaming "YOU FUCKED UP!!". The other side of the coin is that one source from which all things depend is nature and yeah as mentioned above we may take it for granted a times. And I am sure people would argue that is god anyway hahaha.

If I have a lucid dream that i am eating a yummy donut does that mean i really am eating a yummy donut?

In all seriousness though i really do wanna know.

WATER_CAN-_- · Post by **WATER_CAN-_-** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:10 pm

Lifeforms such as a porcupine have evolved to have a defense mechanism. The planet as you correctly point out is essentially a rock. The planet itself is not a life-form and will not protect itself. As of right now the earth supports wide diversity of life. Humans, being highly advanced organisms, have now been shown to be able to have a direct impact on the existence of the diversity of life (if you look back on my previous posts) causing mass species extinction through things like anthropogenic(human caused) climate change, pollution, and direct destruction of habitat. I think that it's severely unethical to be this careless about the other, especially sentient life, we share this planet with. Many of which have evolved over millions of years and we are capable of wiping many of them out in less than a hundred.

While all the processes that cause dreams and lucid dreams are not fully understood. We do know that they take place in the brain. How? Because brain wave activity can be measured when a person or even animal for that matter is dreaming. This is a field of intense study in neuroscience. As far as science can tell there is only one reality and dreaming is still within that reality. It's simply something our brain does when we sleep. Here are some studies below on dreaming/lucid dreaming. As you can see lucid dreaming can be analyzed. Sorry, but there is nothing magical or mystical about it.

http://www.academia.edu/3887224/Neurobi ... d_dreaming

http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/v17 ... .3719.html

I think that people should really consider applying the same level of skepticism that is directed at science to spirituality/religion/god claims. Yes, everything we observe with our senses, and through superficial observation is not the entirety of reality. Through science we have able to learn about atoms and even smaller subatomic quantum particles that obey, for the lack of better words, laws of nature. Physicists have even been able to figure out part of the laws of nature. This is some of the real underlying fabric of reality, and we are finding out more about it all the time thanks to physicists. Now should we as humans expect to know everything about the universe eventually? It's probably unreasonable to think we will. I think it's also unreasonable to simply fill in what we don't know with what we like the idea of. There is nothing wrong with saying "I don't know".

noby · Post by **noby** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 5:28 pm

Valotonin wrote:(I am 19 years old and of the last generation old enough to remember how beautiful life was before we came to rely on lifeless machines for everything that already existed

That sounds kinda naïve, everyone thinks about their generation that way at some point. If anything it's the generation that was born 70-80 years ago who it actually applies to.

Cupz · Post by **Cupz** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 6:04 pm

lankydoom wrote: If I have a lucid dream that i am eating a yummy donut does that mean i really am eating a yummy donut?

Its just as real as anything else, I would say. If it tastes like donut...

WATER_CAN-_- · Post by **WATER_CAN-_-** » Sat Aug 23, 2014 7:33 pm

I'll just leave this here.

It's an excellent illustration of what it really means to be openminded.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T69TOuqaqXI

Cupz · Post by **Cupz** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 8:47 am

Cool, lets have youtube do the debate for us!

...though I'm not sure why twoism would need a lecture on open-mindedness.

WATER_CAN-_- · Post by **WATER_CAN-_-** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:08 pm

Actually, I had already finished refuting every one of your points. I also don't believe the entirety of Twoism does need a lecture on open-mindedness. I think there are plenty of rational thinkers here.

Cupz · Post by **Cupz** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:09 pm

Actually, you where refuting points I wasn't making.

WATER_CAN-_- · Post by **WATER_CAN-_-** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:26 pm

Okay. If anyone cares enough to read through these posts, they will see that isn't correct. But if there is some point you think I didn't address, then I will be happy to oblige.

Cupz · Post by **Cupz** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 4:54 pm

Well, I'm starting to dislike the tone of this discussion (might just be the weed though), but ok, I'll bite one last time.

A good example of an unmade point refuted is your reaction to my example regarding dreams. I never claimed dreams are a "magical" thing, or even a thing that isn't related to science by saying "you cant prove dreams..." or something. Oneirology and neurology are actually some of my main interests in life and I am highly aware of the possible natures of dreams. My only point was that even seeing things with your own eyes does not mean its actually reality. Those scientific essays you remember reading could very well be something you dreamed. I could be really stuborn about a point I could swear was proven fact, only to find out it was in a dream-version of finnegans wake I read with my eyes closed years prior. Reality is highly relative, to the point where truth in science could very well come down to the individual. This forum might not even be real...do you see what I was trying to say? That picture next to my post could be but a fragment of your own imagination, and so could your entire view of reality, science, religion and everything else be.

I'm also really not saying I'm right and you're wrong, I'm saying its very likely most ideas are wrong. The probability that I'm wrong is incredibly high, and so is the probablity you are wrong, and everyone elses. The lack of this notion is what I meant with the decline in spirituality and faith. We are all so stuborn, thinking we are right all the time. Truth is our tiny little brains cannot even begin to comprehend complicated matters as this... we shouldn't rule things out as quickly as you seem to do.

WATER_CAN-_- · Post by **WATER_CAN-_-** » Sun Aug 24, 2014 6:14 pm

My only point was that even seeing things with your own eyes does not mean its actually reality

Yes, I agree with you. This is why scientists don't rely on their senses to figure out what is actually happening. They take samples, conduct experiments, and take measurements from those experiments which provide evidence. They are also sometimes able to discover mathematical formulas that describe the way nature behaves or a property of it. A famous example is E=MC^2. The evidence that the formulas are correct is that they are able to use these formulas later.

While I can't rule it to be impossible that it has all been fabricated by a space wizard, I don't have a good reason to think it is. See the thing about science is that while it may not be able to answer every question, it's the best tool we have so far to get an idea of what might be "going on" in this universe. Since everyone across the planet and throughout time can use the scientific method, experiments can be replicated. If someone else replicates the same experiment, and all the same conditions have been met, the other people should get the same results. Otherwise the investigation will need to be continued. Since science does work and produce results (you likely have proof right in front of you in the form of your computer) I don't see any reason to abandon it.

Before science, human beings relied on logic as their best tool for trying to understand the world. You seem to be advocating returning to a time before logic. Where humans just believed in stories to explain everything. Therefore you are contradicting yourself with your only point above.

Those scientific essays you remember reading could very well be something you dreamed.

No, I don't have to remember them. I linked many in this thread and I can go back and look at them. If someone yells, "hey Cupz wake up!" while you're sleeping are you going wake up? Probably. Unless you're in a drunken slumber. If someone yells the same thing while you are awake, are you going to wake up again?

Everything we experience might not be real, but I have no reason to think it isn't. I can be measured by body temperature, weight, height, etc. Also as far as I know nearly everything else around me can be measured. Therefore we can can collect data on ourselves and things around us. If we can collect data, then we can know something about the things around us. If we can know something about things, then I have no reason to think they don't exist.

The probability that I'm wrong is incredibly high, and so is the probablity you are wrong, and everyone elses. The lack of this notion is what I meant with the decline in spirituality and faith.

No, this is the point of view science starts with, that everything might be wrong. Scientists then work to eliminate all other possibilities as brutally as possible, and what they are left with is the best idea we have so far as to what might be true. Otherwise you are right, we have nothing else to go on. This is why we shouldn't abandon science and technology. Science needs to use technology to try and figure out more things about the world.

I'm not sure what spirituality means except in a metaphorical sense. Faith means to believe something without evidence. I don't think that is a wise idea in any case, and I would never advocate anyone to do so. I advocate for people to think for themselves, ask questions (particularly why, how, what questions), and never accept anything to be true without good solid evidence.

Valotonin · Post by **Valotonin** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 2:10 am

To be honest. You are all right to a certain extent.
My beliefs are that the human population is killing it's self through poison and at the same time subjecting its self to technological eccentricity and inevitable death.
I believe if the human race draws the line at computers it will function to a far greater degree. remember personal happiness (you guys remember the 90s right?) is what is fundamental to human creativity. I love you all in reality and if you remember the values of the past you will be intertwined with the present in a positive way. People need to remember that there personal beliefs and values are important in today's strange, futuristic world.

(Deleted other posts due to temporary loss of sanity)

WATER_CAN-_- · Post by **WATER_CAN-_-** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 3:01 am

I was born in the early eighties, and the happiest times in my life were from ages 3-10 approximately (85-92). I'm sure I wasn't happy all the time, but some of BoC's music (most notably Everything You Do Is A Balloon) happens to invoke memories of some of the most blissful moments from this period. So it could be that if a person has a good enough childhood, it just feels magical for the lack of a better word.

BoC, being the mozarts that they are, and having the ability to target sounds from specific time periods (BTW I doubt anyone else on Earth has this skill), have caused me to sort of connect with this beautiful time in my life, and also remember things that are pure such as our connection with nature. For this I will be forever grateful to them.

At the same time with the knowledge I have now, I very much like the future that Star Trek TNG envisioned for us. There is something very hopeful about it even though the premise is that we are spacefaring beings. My original point before I digressed was that I think it's possible that we can have the advanced technology, AND ALSO be respectful to other life and the environment that supports it. Although I'm not asserting that it will be easy.

Valotonin · Post by **Valotonin** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:24 am

Valotonin · Post by **Valotonin** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:28 am

WATER_CAN-_- · Post by **WATER_CAN-_-** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 4:02 am

While I see some justification for your concern, I think you're getting at least somewhat carried away with being afraid of all technology. From my understanding, if anything technology and entertainment are contributing to us living in the most peaceful time in human history. From watching the video, I don't think her father(so I think) is trying to convince her she is in a real environment. I surely hope that the child also plays outside and uses her imagination.

I don't really see a problem with a virtual environment as long as it's being used in an ethical way (not brainwashing people). I also don't necessarily have a problem with virtual sex or violence. There have been some studies that indicate there is a correlation with virtual violence/sex(video games/porn) and crimes of these nature, which suggest they have either stayed the same or have been less crime as (violent video games/porn) become more prevalent. I'd rather people get certain things out of their systems in a virtual world rather than in the real one, where lives can be devastated.

Having said the above, I will however admit that I think superficial technology, as well as excessive entertainment and materialism are playing a role in "dumbing down" the overall population in some places such as the US. I do have a problem with this as I prefer that we evolve and move forward as a species (in a good way). As I've also mentioned I think religion has a similar negative effect in helping to dumb down the population (stifling or eliminating curiosity). Of course we should be careful in not letting a 1984 or Brave New World type society come to fruition. Though I fear we are presently getting a small taste of both.

Valotonin · Post by **Valotonin** » Wed Sep 03, 2014 6:08 am

I think you are right.
My concern was a little obsessive.
It's mostly the fact that by old age the world is almost unrecognizable compared to the world we are born in to as a result of technology. I don't think humans have the capability to deal with it positively if the rate of change continues to increase which is inevitable. Permanence and security is something we latch to.

I bought a reel to reel the other day. It sounds nice.

____twoism

Tomorrow's harvest (last post)

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