Gender

[Echo the Sun]

i don't believe in the widely-accepted definition of gender because it implies something appended to sex unless the subject is deviant. i think gender is influenced by environment to a much greater degree than people realize. my view is controversial. i think some people fall into their sexual orientation—that some people aren't born with a sexual orientation. but who says that's a bad thing? why do homophobes attack homosexuals by saying "you chose your orientation"? what's wrong with falling into it? what's wrong with even choosing it? why is nature valued above environment on this matter? regardless of whether one believes nature or nurture plays a more significant role in determining a person's sexual orientation or gender, though, one cannot deny it's very difficult and rare for someone to change gender and sexual orientation. i think that's why people assume the matter is mostly down to nature. it's important to note, though, that humans tend to get stuck in their ways, and the fact that society reinforces normative behaviours doesn't help things, either. we learn to be disgusted sexually by our family [don't believe me? look it up. it has to do with smell], but once we are, it's very hard to get rid of that repulsion. you might want to argue that the way we learn to be disgusted sexually by our families is governed by a biological mechanism, but all learning is governed by biological mechanisms.

[turquoise70]

I'm glad you said so, Echo. I often feel the dialog that medical professionals and other people that are in-the-know about the proper care and treatment of transgender people use, legitimizes it with the "They can't help it" argument.

A LOT of times in the media you'll hear it said that trans people basically have to choose between transition or suicide. Which is not always true. The suicide rate for trans folks is ridiculously high, yes. But humans are complicated, and I refuse to believe that the reason I am who I am now is because femininity is hardwired into my brain and eventually I would've either killed myself or transitioned.

Much of my transition was a personal choice. Becoming Nicole Johnson wasn't just like this sweat-lodge event where I had an epiphany and suddenly saw the Real Me. I had to create Nicole Johnson. I had to invent a new identity, and I did it the same way I've invented -any- identity. By trying things on, and seeing how they fit, and adopting them one by one. And I could've chosen not to do any of that. Transitioning for me was a very deliberate, self-directed act of creation. And a lot of the wording in the medical world and increasingly in the media as mainstream folks learn how to better talk about gender, basically excludes me as a legitimate woman because I "picked" it.

Basically, since I didn't have a master epiphany at age 5 that I was supposed to be a girl, and spent the next 30 years of my life on the verge of suicide over it, I'm just doing this for fun. A gender poser. And I don't deserve to be recognized or protected or offered medical services, because I'm not -suffering- from my gender situation. I hope that as a society we can think of people who queer their gender less like people with intractable diseases in the future.

[Jonse]

I'm really very sorry and perhaps I missed something crucial but: huh?

Can't tell whether or not that last bit was sarcasm Nicole or what it really means. You're criticizing people who discredit that what you have is real, right? Wording is throwing me off. "Queer their gender"?

[IanRedpoint]

I read it as a criticism of those who discredit some people for wanting to change gender without having what they see as deep or extreme enough reasons for doing so. It must be awful to think that your reason for wanting to change isn't valid enough, that not having a terrible suicidal past invalidates your desire to be someone else.

I had to re-read the last couple of lines too, to get the proper meaning. I hadn't heard the "Queer your gender" phrase before either.

[jcnporter]

my view is controversial. i think some people fall into their sexual orientation—that some people aren't born with a sexual orientation. but who says that's a bad thing? why do homophobes attack homosexuals by saying "you chose your orientation"?

I think when homophobes say that sexual orientation is a 'lifestyle choice', it's an attempt to trivialise the struggle that some have with their sexuality, to put the blame for their issues on themselves. It's the religious view as well - God couldn't have created natural homosexuality, so it must be something that's 'chosen' and therefore something that a psychologist can 'cure'.

[Jonse]

I read it as a criticism of those who discredit some people for wanting to change gender without having what they see as deep or extreme enough reasons for doing so. It must be awful to think that your reason for wanting to change isn't valid enough, that not having a terrible suicidal past invalidates your desire to be someone else.

I had to re-read the last couple of lines too, to get the proper meaning. I hadn't heard the "Queer your gender" phrase before either.

I have a feeling it has something to do with the terminology stemming from that time when the term "genderqueer" was sort of added to "LGBT" as "LGBTQ" - "sort of" because it's not really what anybody says anymore, was more recent and only lasted a little while. I never liked the term and the newer usage of the word "queer" but it's not my place to step in and say anything about it.

[Negamuse]

I read it as a criticism of those who discredit some people for wanting to change gender without having what they see as deep or extreme enough reasons for doing so. It must be awful to think that your reason for wanting to change isn't valid enough, that not having a terrible suicidal past invalidates your desire to be someone else.

A lot of people put off transition or deny themselves their true identity because by the 'standard trans narrative' they don't feel 'trans enough', which is sad. The gender identity clinics don't help by expecting to hear this narrative too, and if you go in without it you can often find yourself having to fight harder for treatment. Part of finding out who you are is (or should be) experimenting and trying things out to see what feels right. Its harder to do that the more time passes - your given biology doesnt stop while you make up your mind, after all. Thats not to say that young people have it easy of course. But you can imagine it doesnt feel great to feel you've run yourself out of options.

[Cupz]

is gender real

explained for people that owned a nes

[mono]

Hey Nicole, how are you doing? I found this thread helpful since I'm going through a similar situation to yours - having been trying genderbendy stuff for a while, I'm now considering beginning HRT. But I'm a bit afraid of actually asking around because I fear I might have to justify myself. How did things go for you?

[Kyla]

Wow how many trans peeps are in Twoism ? Is this like my heaven or something am I dead ?
Somethings not right, clearly Boards Of Canada fandom is Genetic

[rodox_head]

I'm glad you said so, Echo. I often feel the dialog that medical professionals and other people that are in-the-know about the proper care and treatment of transgender people use, legitimizes it with the "They can't help it" argument.

A LOT of times in the media you'll hear it said that trans people basically have to choose between transition or suicide. Which is not always true. The suicide rate for trans folks is ridiculously high, yes. But humans are complicated, and I refuse to believe that the reason I am who I am now is because femininity is hardwired into my brain and eventually I would've either killed myself or transitioned.

Much of my transition was a personal choice. Becoming Nicole Johnson wasn't just like this sweat-lodge event where I had an epiphany and suddenly saw the Real Me. I had to create Nicole Johnson. I had to invent a new identity, and I did it the same way I've invented -any- identity. By trying things on, and seeing how they fit, and adopting them one by one. And I could've chosen not to do any of that. Transitioning for me was a very deliberate, self-directed act of creation. And a lot of the wording in the medical world and increasingly in the media as mainstream folks learn how to better talk about gender, basically excludes me as a legitimate woman because I "picked" it.

Basically, since I didn't have a master epiphany at age 5 that I was supposed to be a girl, and spent the next 30 years of my life on the verge of suicide over it, I'm just doing this for fun. A gender poser. And I don't deserve to be recognized or protected or offered medical services, because I'm not -suffering- from my gender situation. I hope that as a society we can think of people who queer their gender less like people with intractable diseases in the future.

I'm hesitant to go a little further into it, but this post really resonates with me now, and how I've been feeling for the past few years. It's been difficult to process in a perpetual state of isolation, like a bullet to the head with no exit wound.

[Waterbagel]

man. this thread. I'm really grateful for this forum topic; it was my first real introduction to gender as a concept that wasn't just the taken-for-granted binary that I'd grown up with. eternally thankful to turquoise70 for creating it and adding so much

FWIW rodox - I don't know where you're at or where you'd like to go, but as an aside - having since witnessed several of my friends and acquaintances transition (both MtF, FtM) or come out as non-binary in the decade since this topic was created, I can say that more often than not it seemed like a very gradual sort of trip whose destination was never really certain until at some point, the person hit "huh. this feels right and good"

[rodox_head]

FWIW rodox - I don't know where you're at or where you'd like to go, but as an aside - having since witnessed several of my friends and acquaintances transition (both MtF, FtM) or come out as non-binary in the decade since this topic was created, I can say that more often than not it seemed like a very gradual sort of trip whose destination was never really certain until at some point, the person hit "huh. this feels right and good"

It's weird to say, but the closest (keyword) I've come to witnessing someone I know go through something like that would be here all those years back and YTPer DaThings a couple years ago. As much as I've spritually grown within the past four years, associating masculinity and femininity with the corporeal and ethereal respectively and not inherent to physical gender or a good/bad dichotomy, I still feel very much isolated and realize how much I've been my entire life. Somehow I feel like I'm somewhere near that destination yet floating in an unconfirmed purgatory, like another me started to grow within me and now I'm not sure which one is the true one.

A slight aside, but the number 28 is my personal "holy" number, so to speak, and I turn 27 this year. DaThings is the same age as me (I think) and, if my math is right, I'm not far off from Nicole in age in that regard (apologies to Nicole if bringing this up brings discomfort), so I kinda fear some kind of "big change" event at 28. Feel free to chalk that up to supernatural bologna if you want .

[kakanara]

can you elaborate on the 28 thing? sounds interesting

[rodox_head]

can you elaborate on the 28 thing? sounds interesting

Kinda like with John Lennon and 9, it's a number that's popped up a lot, I was born on the 28th, The department of the store I primarily work in is 28, and also a few more related to addresses so I don't feel safe in divulging those. Even the same image set where I got the one for my old avatar had a model wearing a shirt that had a giant 28 on the front right under my nose the whole time.

Spiritually, 8 resembles the infinity symbol while 2 resembles said symbol cut in half or incomplete. 8=infinity in death and 2=finite life. 8+2=10 or back to zero (return to nothingness). I'm not crazy, just eccentric, I promise

[kakanara]

Kinda like with John Lennon and 9, it's a number that's popped up a lot, I was born on the 28th, The department of the store I primarily work in is 28, and also a few more related to addresses so I don't feel safe in divulging those. Even the same image set where I got the one for my old avatar had a model wearing a shirt that had a giant 28 on the front right under my nose the whole time.

Spiritually, 8 resembles the infinity symbol while 2 resembles said symbol cut in half or incomplete. 8=infinity in death and 2=finite life. 8+2=10 or back to zero (return to nothingness). I'm not crazy, just eccentric, I promise

very interesting...

[Orbited insanitarium]

Kinda like with John Lennon and 9, it's a number that's popped up a lot, I was born on the 28th, The department of the store I primarily work in is 28, and also a few more related to addresses so I don't feel safe in divulging those. Even the same image set where I got the one for my old avatar had a model wearing a shirt that had a giant 28 on the front right under my nose the whole time.

Spiritually, 8 resembles the infinity symbol while 2 resembles said symbol cut in half or incomplete. 8=infinity in death and 2=finite life. 8+2=10 or back to zero (return to nothingness). I'm not crazy, just eccentric, I promise

very interesting...

Kakanara, you avatar has mysteriously made itself a 28! Has someone meddled with you account or was it always that way but I just didn’t notice?
Spooky

Also about reoccurring numbers, there is a TV show dedicated to the number 9 (it’s literally called inside No.9)
Each instalment is a independent story based around the number, one episode was about a hotel floor 9, and another was based upon a obsessive fanbase of a series called ‘the ninth wave’

good anthology series worth checking out.

[kakanara]

Kakanara, you avatar has mysteriously made itself a 28! Has someone meddled with you account or was it always that way but I just didn’t notice?
Spooky

Also about reoccurring numbers, there is a TV show dedicated to the number 9 (it’s literally called inside No.9)
Each instalment is a independent story based around the number, one episode was about a hotel floor 9, and another was based upon a obsessive fanbase of a series called ‘the ninth wave’

good anthology series worth checking out.

what are you talking about? it's always been this way...
that series looks pretty fun! i might get into it soon

[Waterbagel]

Kakanara, you avatar has mysteriously made itself a 28! Has someone meddled with you account or was it always that way but I just didn’t notice?
Spooky

good eye

[rodox_head]

Okay, maybe I am crazy, I'll be on the lookout for any giant talking doomsday rabbits now.