Brexit

[fujee]

UK Twoism users, what is your position, and why?

I think I can safely assume most of us on here are of a left persuasion, and as a leftie myself, I am interested to hear your opinions. I am very much undecided at the moment, and with the date looming I would like some discussion about Brexit from a left perspective. I think there are tenable and convincing arguments from both leave and remain positions, but some debate would help me decide.

EU and worldwide users feel free to chip in with your opinions!

[jcnporter]

I'm not a fan of the EU - as a 'left libertarian', for want of a better term, on a basic level I'm suspicious of states and super-states and don't feel they work as an effective proxy for the people. In addition, the Greek crisis has shown their willingness to reinforce the bankers/neoliberal agenda.
I don't subscribe to the idea that leave voters are nutters and racists - a number of people have made the left-wing case for leave and much of the conservative case for leave has validity.
Having said that, on balance I think we're better to stay in at the moment, for a number of reasons.
The democracy argument is a red herring - our level of democracy at the moment is inadequate - first past the post, House of Lords etc. None of which will change with Brexit.
The government who will negotiate Brexit and any trade agreements will be one of the most right wing in recent times, utter neoliberal cheerleaders. TTIP, which will see the final destruction of post-war progress and permanent establishment of neoliberalism, looks like it might be sunk or watered down in the EU - with Brexit we will get TTIP on steroids.
The Brexit idea that we will shut the borders and everything will be fine is all fantasy and lies - our level of immigration isn't excessive compared to similar countries, problems with public services are down to austerity and poor planning (clearly some, inevitably poorer areas, feel the effects of immigration disproportionately) and we live in a globalised world now, like it or not.
We've been spun and lied to by the press about Europe for decades - we hear all the downsides (some of which are valid, some basically made up) and none of the upsides - worker protection, environmental protection, to name two.
There are farmers waiting to rip out hedges and spray drainage ditches with diesel, employers waiting to hire and fire at will upon the advent of the Brexit utopia, thinking that, freed from the shackles of the EU, they will be millionaires overnight. I know because I've talked to such people.
The debate is dumbed down, skewed and most people are voting on instinct.
If you are still undecided, simple logic says vote remain as we can always leave later - Brexit is permanent.

[Mexicola]

It's incredibly interesting to watch as neither side seems to be able to express a coherent message and so both appear to be largely relying on the already ingrained instincts and gut reactions of the public. This worries me greatly. The completely ineffective campaign from the Remain camp has been depressing. I'm not convinced that Cameron truly believes and Corbyn was traditionally a Leave supporter until recently. For all it's faults (many and serious) I truly believe the EU remains a progressive influence upon our country. You only have to look at how Tories have railed against it for years, the party of the rich, the privileged and the little-Englander, to make you want to ask why? I believe a certain Mr Brian Eno expressed as much just today. While I'm usually a bit sniffy about musicians chipping in on political dialogue, he articulates very well much of what I instinctively feel to be accurate. But there you go...instinct, rather than cool, balanced analysis. That does rather seem to be the way of it for most,myself included. Here's his take on it all:

'In just a few days we will be voting whether to stay in the EU.

Until recently I’d assumed there was no chance we’d vote to leave. However, recent polls seem to be showing ‘Leave’ and ‘Remain’ are neck and neck. Some polls even show ‘Leave’ leading.

You may have made up your mind and plan to vote (in which case ignore this letter), but if, like me, you’ve been complacent about the issue, it might be time to rethink. What the ‘Leaves’ have on their side is their unquenchable enthusiasm for a ‘Great’ Britain that they think we can revive – and several powerful media outlets to propagandise the idea. The Leavers know they can count on their demographic – primarily older people – to get out and vote, whereas the ‘Remain’ demographic is less reliable (and more complacent). And the Leavers have LOTS of money: seems like a lot of very wealthy people are anxious to get out of the EU.

I wonder why? Is it because many of the constraints on how badly you’re allowed to treat workers have been put in place by the EU? Is it because the EU has insisted on environmental legislation which hampers the freedom-to-pollute of corporations and governments? Is it because the EU has established an international criminal court where all those people to whom we sell weapons might be called to account? Is it because the EU has tried to come up with some sort of humane response to immigration other than barbed wire and Trumpian walls?

I have a lot of misgivings about the way the EU is run, but they don’t make me want to ditch the whole idea. I feel the EU is one of the only restraints on the kind of neo-liberal market fundamentalism that has seen inequality rising throughout the world. I feel that it has been a net force for good in promoting enlightened social and environmental agendas. It could and should be doing a better job at all these things, but to do any job at all it needs our support.

The only good outcome of this referendum is that it might remind us what the original mission of the EU was, and might motivate us to actually make it happen.

So…please vote. And please ask your friends to do the same.

– Brian'

[Guido]

The Brexit idea that we will shut the borders and everything will be fine is all fantasy and lies - our level of immigration isn't excessive compared to similar countries, problems with public services are down to austerity and poor planning (clearly some, inevitably poorer areas, feel the effects of immigration disproportionately) and we live in a globalised world now, like it or not.

The way the EU has dealt with the influx of refugees is awful. The management of refugees was a litmus test for purported virtue of a united Europe and the whole process has gone down utterly chaotic. Because of this mismanagement they even resorted to breaking their own rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Re ... ant_crisis.

The European Union moreover has no intent of stopping the inflow of refugees. This is a historical process that is inflicting irreversible damage upon the safety of Europe's population as well ushering in sharia law. Wherever there are large amount of migrants entering the country, rape and harassment are absolutely rampant. This is not a conspiracy theory as there is plenty of tangible proof for this, although you typically won't see it in main stream media.

[Aerial Boundaries]

The Brexit idea that we will shut the borders and everything will be fine is all fantasy and lies - our level of immigration isn't excessive compared to similar countries, problems with public services are down to austerity and poor planning (clearly some, inevitably poorer areas, feel the effects of immigration disproportionately) and we live in a globalised world now, like it or not.

The way the EU has dealt with the influx of refugees is awful. The management of refugees was a litmus test for purported virtue of a united Europe and the whole process has gone down utterly chaotic. Because of this mismanagement they even resorted to breaking their own rules. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dublin_Re ... ant_crisis.

The European Union moreover has no intent of stopping the inflow of refugees. This is a historical process that is inflicting irreversible damage upon the safety of Europe's population as well ushering in sharia law. Wherever there are large amount of migrants entering the country, rape and harassment are absolutely rampant. This is not a conspiracy theory as there is plenty of tangible proof for this, although you typically won't see it in main stream media.

Actually you see quite a bit of this kind of 'news' in the media over here in the UK. They have been very effective at shaping people's views in this area, and it forms a convenient distraction for the populace from the neoliberal, pro-capital, pro-finance policies of Western governments which have been steadily destroying public institutions and holding back economic recovery (see here for a major economist's view on this http://www.theguardian.com/business/ng- ... y-delusion ) since the start of this crisis.

I must say it is sad to see a Twoismer caught up in this kind of fear-mongering.

[jcnporter]

I'm not sure quoting each other there was appropriate there because we're all talking about different issues.
My original point was about movement between EU countries, which I don't believe is necessarily a problem in itself, but has been managed badly - firstly, I think the economic gap between eastern and western Europe was too big at the time the eastern european countries joined, which then led to the much higher than predicted influx of people looking for work, which then led to poor planning of public services and of course, the feeling of too rapid change in poorer areas which ended up taking the majority of people.
What Germany managed with reunification was never going to be replicated across the EU.
Secondly, while again I believe wholeheartedly in the free movement concept, it is obvious that the primary benefits of it were intended for big business i.e. a resource of 'flexible' labour.
Regarding the refugee crisis, I believe that we do have an obligation to help with the Syrian refugee situation, but again it was extremely badly managed, both by the EU and between the EU and Syria's middle eastern neighbours.
The problem of cultural clashes that the EU faces (and the UK faces by itself) for me is mainly due to allowing ghettoisation of communities and an unwillingness to insist on/facilitate integration - a good example for me in the UK (although nothing to do with the EU) is Tony Blair's faith-based schools - a toxic idea for me that any observer of sectarianism here in Northern Ireland would have concluded is an utter disaster waiting to happen.
Both of these issues are an example of the slow and poorly thought out reactions inherent to a organisation the size and diversity of the EU.
However, the EU were always going to have to take refugees, even as individual countries, so for me the question is, how do we manage better from now on and in the future? By abandoning the EU or acting as a positive influence? If we leave, then one of the major drivers for reform among our nearest neighbours in the world is gone.

[louise]

im working at one of the polling stations for this...not going to vote myself as bad as it is because i honestly dont know what's best and i also feel like i dont really care but its been discussed a lot at work and the majority of people ive spoken to are voting remain. majority of them are conservative, dont know if theres a link or what.

[Mexicola]

It does amaze me, although it shouldn't I suppose anymore, that anybody thinks for one moment that pulling out the EU and handing more power to people like Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Jeremy Hunt can somehow improve our lot, magically reverting Britain back to some 1950s utopia which never existed anyway. Does it feel like human evolution running in reverse to you too?

I also get rather worried about who 'they' will look to blame once Europe and immigrants can't be made a scapegoat anymore. Who are they going to come after next time? Jobless? Homeless? The old or infirm? LGBT? Because, make no mistake, when that 1950s 2.4 kids, cricket on the village lawn, warm beer, Policeman on every corner bullshit doesn't miraculously appear, the public won't suddenly wake up and realise they've been had (again). They'll look for another excuse and come after someone else. Mark my words, it won't be anyone who deserves it either. Bankers and politicians can't be overturned? Well, let's go lynch a few minorities instead, they don't seem so untouchable and, look, they don't even look like us do they?!? Much easier.

Paranoid? Scaremongering? Perhaps. But the longer I observe the apathy and idiocy of the populace at large, the more I despair of us ever being anything more than fodder for the rich and the privileged. I'll vote remain, but I don't expect to be happy come Friday.

[IanRedpoint]

Leave has failed to give me any vision of a future Britain that doesn't either look like deranged fantasy or fill me with revulsion. I don't think there's a single figure whose opinion I respect calling for Brexit.

On an even more basic, gut level, I will never vote alongside racists and bigots. The idea that UKIP will "win" genuinely sickens me.

[fujee]

Jcn, I think you hit the nail on the head for me really. I also have some innate scepticism towards the EU as a notion in itself, it sometimes strikes me as this Kafkaesque nightmare which is very often incredibly undemocratic and accountable to no one. That is sometimes enough for me to think of voting leave. I also think Germany's treatment of Greece has left me with a bitter taste, especially when placing European debt into a historical framework (not to mention considering how well the Germans benefited economically with the introduction of the Euro). What the Greek problem showed me is how willing the EU was on maintaining a status quo after the 2008 economic crisis, they really wanted to chastise Greece, as any concessions given to Syriza would give impetus to other anti-austerity parties (this happening all whilst austerity measures were introduced across the continent). Not only that, but the severe conditions handed down to the Greeks caused massive collateral damage to their people. That pisses me off.

But on the other hand, like you said a Brexit vote would open the floodgates on some truly disastrous proposals, such as TTIP and the removal of many necessary social/environmental protections. Essentially, I think I am in agreement with Varoufakis when he mentioned that Brussels is in need of a bloodied nose, but that a Brexit vote would also destabilise an entire continent and stoke the flames of racism and xenophobia. I think I will vote remain because it does give the country future leverage, but the inner mechanics of the single market and the (un)democractic processes which underpin this project are in need of fundamental change. But of course, we cannot trust our current government to do anything about this.

In essence, I do not think 'revenge' (for lack of better word) is the most democratic and progressive stance from which to vote on something as significant as this. But at times it does feel like we're stuck between a rock and a hard place. One thing that is interesting to consider is how a leave win would reshape British politics, you'd likely see an even stronger return of the left within Labour, and an even more adamant right-wing Conservative party. It's difficult to tell whether that consequence is a good or bad thing, which is why this vote seems so difficult to decide. However, one thing that appears obvious is that Labour needs to cement their stance on free movement, as that question and their skirting of the issue is alienating so many of their traditional voting base. Domestic issues remain whether we leave or stay, the prior could be disastrous with interesting consequences for the near future, whilst the latter could encourage total stagnation. It's tough, but I think the semblance of stability which a remain vote provides in these precarious times will ultimately cause less damage than a leave vote. It's a caveat-laden remain vote for me.

[Cupz]

there is plenty of tangible proof for this, although you typically won't see it in main stream media.

I'd like to see your tangible proof. Its funny you say this because the feeling I got was that dutch mainstream media is jumping on all of these scenarios like hungry flies on a turd.



For real, all of this refuge stuff and how the media is handling it feels like classic divide and rule tactics.

[Valotonin]

It isn't even worth wrapping one's head around the propaganda. Both sides are lying.

[Mexicola]

The Financial Times last week.

[fujee]

Well written piece, largely in agreement with it. Though, I think you can be an internationalist and have serious reservations about the current state of the EU. I think that distinction is overlooked and is probably why the press has resorted to name-calling. The EU's good outweighs the bad, and like Ian and Mex said, siding with some seriously odious figures in the name of a left Brexit vote would seem incredibly hollow, all things considered.

[fujee]

This is interesting and informative.

[Valotonin]

More than twenty police forces investigating the Conservative party for election fraud... Uses referendum as largest diversion of attention in recent political history. Oh and by the way if you ever try to criticise the Israeli government, you are Hitler. It is nice to know free speech and freedom of the press are alive and well.

[Aerial Boundaries]

More than twenty police forces investigating the Conservative party for election fraud... Uses referendum as largest diversion of attention in recent political history. Oh and by the way if you ever try to criticise the Israeli government, you are Hitler. It is nice to know free speech and freedom of the press are alive and well.

Oh yes. The expenses scandal is delicious, here's hoping twelve of them are convicted at least!

[drillkicker]

Oh and by the way if you ever try to criticise the Israeli government, you are Hitler.

Isn't that something the liberals believe ? Because the majority of conservatives I've spoken with really aren't too friendly about Jews.

[Valotonin]

Oh and by the way if you ever try to criticise the Israeli government, you are Hitler.

Isn't that something the liberals believe ? Because the majority of conservatives I've spoken with really aren't too friendly about Jews.

My point entirely. Criticising the Israeli government is something that people on the left have done recently because it has nothing at all with disliking the jewish faith. Every year tens of thousands of Jewish people including Rabbis and other people well within the Jewish community march against israel 'Not in my name' kind of thing. Media coverage? None.
Israel as a state has to be held accountable for its actions tbh. I don't dislike Israeli people and some of them seem like genuinely nice people from my experiences, I just detest the actions of their government.

[jcnporter]

With the polls closed, too many pundits are predicting a remain vote. They haven't learned their lesson from the last general election. Something doesn't feel right....the polls don't sit right alongside talk of huge turnouts of people who don't normally vote....I think there could be a bit of an upset.