Antinatalism

[rodox_head]

Recently I have been thinking about this subject. I'm not quite sure what I could add to what Solar Sands says in his video below, but I always recall something some channer said on the cencept of having children, basically that when you have a kid, you run the risk of having them turn out to be 100% like you. It's then that I ponder on the thought "does the world really need another 'me'?", as I cannot properly care for the real me on my own, much less another me. I often have morbid fantasies of seeing an alternate reality where I was never born, but more out of curiosity, rather than depression.

As much as I would have wanted to raise my own family when I was younger, through various revelations that include (but not limited to) fear/disgust of sexual intercourse and some degree of feminism, I personally opted out of the procreation game. Not to mention the obvious question of "Is this a world I would want to bring another life into?"

I know some of you on this board are parents (and no judgement being thrown here at all), but I'm genuinely curious if anyone else has thought seriously about this kind of thing. This isn't meant to be angsty, nor do I even feel that way right now as I post this.

[SamuraiDrifter]

I have a kid. I've never thought there was any validity to anti-natalist arguments from an ethical perspective.

The most common argument I hear is that it's wrong to have kids because life involves suffering and you're inflicting that upon them without their consent. To me the idea of trying to apply agency to non-existent beings isn't valid. If we're to consider the suffering of non-existent beings, shouldn't we also consider their potential for happiness? If I choose not to have a child, aren't I depriving them of all the joy they might otherwise experience without their consent? If non-existent beings have ethical value, am I then obligated to bring as many children into existence as possible to enable them to have joyful experiences?

As to the question of whether or not it will be a negative thing if you have kids who turn out like you, and whether the world "needs" more people like you: these are personal questions people should consider when deciding whether to have a child. If you're not happy with who you are and don't want to subject a child to being raised by you, then you might be right to not have kids. I would also, however, suggest looking into the possibility that you might have a negative self-image as a result of depression, or another condition that can be treated.

And as to whether or not this is a world to bring kids into - while our species is undoubtedly facing great difficulties, humanity isn't going totally extinct any time soon. There will be a next generation, whether we personally like it or not. So in my view, if the thoughtful people who care about the future of our species and planet don't have kids that they raise to feel the same, then that's going to make the future of humanity all that much darker.

What it boils down to for me- there's nothing inherently right or wrong about having kids, it's a personal choice that folks on both sides of the aisle - parents and child-free people - should respect. Whether or not it's right for each individual depends on if they have the means to provide their kids with love and affection and meet their basic needs (and I believe in working towards a world where we all have our basic needs met).

[rodox_head]

I actually agree with you for the most part, SD, but please don't bring my mental health status into this.

[SamuraiDrifter]

I actually agree with you for the most part, SD, but please don't bring my mental health status into this.

I'm not speaking specifically about you, rather many people I've had this discussion with who have argued, often very aggressively, for anti-natalism as an ethical position, stating that it's wrong to have children and that it's based in some kind of narcissism. Not to say that's what you were implying, just a connection I've made with past debates. (I have also seen this exact topic get really ugly before).

That said, I have struggled with depression, anxiety, and other mental illness all my life, and am currently medicated for OCD, and I would really appreciate it if mental health was a topic we could speak generally about without stigmatization. If a friend has intense pain in their lower right side and you say "hey, you should get your appendix checked out," what would an appropriate response be, and should we treat mental health any differently? If we do, are we sending the message that depression is something to be ashamed of? Because again, as that's something I've struggled with all my life, the idea that mental health should be a taboo subject makes me feel like there's something wrong with me that I should be ashamed about.

[Negamuse]

Society puts this huge, huge value on having children as a default, assumed thing, when it should be a personal choice. I would've loved to have had kids, but even among my very non-judgemental friends I felt like it had to be something I justified not doing. I get an itchy feeling around antinatalism because it feels like another one of those situations where people try and create big ethical justifications for this personal choice, and a lot of those justifications end up being sketchy if not toxic. It can very quickly veer off into eugenics or incel territory when really it's just... people don't want kids and that's already justified. Trying to build framework around it just detracts.

In as much as anything has value, everyone's life is valuable and not just as a means for people to create people to replace themselves twice, three times over if they don't want to. All the arguments beyond that point for why we shouldn't have kids still apply to all of us anyway. We've still got to work out how to live in a way that respects other people and the planet, we've still got to find a way to be happy. Plenty of people who get that and have kids, plenty of people who don't get that and don't.

[Sky and Trails]

I have no problem with anti-natalism. I think it's a natural conclusion to things, in a way.
I have a kid and another on the way.
We struggled with whether or not we should 'make our own people' or simply foster and adopt. We did foster for a bit.

For me, the biggest reason I chose to have kids anyway was this weird feeling that maybe my kids could help change things. I know it's naive and might come off like that weird "Indigo Child" thing (saw it in a movie, have no clue if it's a real thing) but I really felt like my own children would have a special place in the world, or a sad and horrible place in it.
Either way, there's an entire universe out there, and that gives me hope.

Sorry to get off subject.

[rodox_head]

That said, I have struggled with depression, anxiety, and other mental illness all my life, and am currently medicated for OCD, and I would really appreciate it if mental health was a topic we could speak generally about without stigmatization. If a friend has intense pain in their lower right side and you say "hey, you should get your appendix checked out," what would an appropriate response be, and should we treat mental health any differently? If we do, are we sending the message that depression is something to be ashamed of? Because again, as that's something I've struggled with all my life, the idea that mental health should be a taboo subject makes me feel like there's something wrong with me that I should be ashamed about.

I find mental health to be a topic too multi-faceted to be properly discussed on most internet platforms. I've had clinical depression all my life but even on an in-person level, it's not a discussion that yields positive results. People find it difficult to fathom that there may be no answer to the problem, so to speak.

Society puts this huge, huge value on having children as a default, assumed thing, when it should be a personal choice. I would've loved to have had kids, but even among my very non-judgemental friends I felt like it had to be something I justified not doing. I get an itchy feeling around antinatalism because it feels like another one of those situations where people try and create big ethical justifications for this personal choice, and a lot of those justifications end up being sketchy if not toxic. It can very quickly veer off into eugenics or incel territory when really it's just... people don't want kids and that's already justified. Trying to build framework around it just detracts.

In as much as anything has value, everyone's life is valuable and not just as a means for people to create people to replace themselves twice, three times over if they don't want to. All the arguments beyond that point for why we shouldn't have kids still apply to all of us anyway. We've still got to work out how to live in a way that respects other people and the planet, we've still got to find a way to be happy. Plenty of people who get that and have kids, plenty of people who don't get that and don't.

As Solar Sands mentions in the video in the OP, Antinatalism is a logistical absurdity that cannot, and should not, be thrust on others. It easily falls into a battle of hostile negativity and toxic positivity *cough-cough*redditandtwitter*cough-cough*. My psychological concept of what a family is has evolved into a blurry and abstract mess due to my upbringing and an unhealthy combination of solitude and the internet so for me it's more a case of I cannot partake in what I don't understand.

[Sky and Trails]

Antinatalism is a logistical absurdity that cannot, and should not, be thrust on others. It easily falls into a battle of hostile negativity and toxic positivity *cough-cough*redditandtwitter*cough-cough*. My psychological concept of what a family is has evolved into a blurry and abstract mess due to my upbringing and an unhealthy combination of solitude and the internet so for me it's more a case of I cannot partake in what I don't understand.

I like the way you put it. It makes total sense to me and I have to be honest - I felt the same way. I know saying that kind of makes it seem like I'm going to add a big BUT and an explanation.

[rodox_head]

Antinatalism is a logistical absurdity that cannot, and should not, be thrust on others. It easily falls into a battle of hostile negativity and toxic positivity *cough-cough*redditandtwitter*cough-cough*. My psychological concept of what a family is has evolved into a blurry and abstract mess due to my upbringing and an unhealthy combination of solitude and the internet so for me it's more a case of I cannot partake in what I don't understand.

I like the way you put it. It makes total sense to me and I have to be honest - I felt the same way. I know saying that kind of makes it seem like I'm going to add a big BUT and an explanation.

Are you responding to the first half of my post or the second when you say that? Or both?

[Sky and Trails]

Antinatalism is a logistical absurdity that cannot, and should not, be thrust on others. It easily falls into a battle of hostile negativity and toxic positivity *cough-cough*redditandtwitter*cough-cough*. My psychological concept of what a family is has evolved into a blurry and abstract mess due to my upbringing and an unhealthy combination of solitude and the internet so for me it's more a case of I cannot partake in what I don't understand.

I like the way you put it. It makes total sense to me and I have to be honest - I felt the same way. I know saying that kind of makes it seem like I'm going to add a big BUT and an explanation.

Are you responding to the first half of my post or the second when you say that? Or both?

I think it was the second half.
I hope it didn't come off bad. I suck at being coherent, I think.

[Sky and Trails]

"My psychological concept of what a family is has evolved into a blurry and abstract mess due to my upbringing and an unhealthy combination of solitude and the internet so for me it's more a case of I cannot partake in what I don't understand."

This is what really got me. I like how you put it. It's exactly the way I felt. Maybe I still feel that way but I don't want to judge myself as doing something wrong when I had a kid.
I didn't realize some of the shit that happened when I was a kid, and it shaped me, and it turned out that shape wasn't nearly as nice as I thought it was. It turns out that I hated myself and I blamed the world, but really, I just don't know/didn't know.

I'm still afraid that I brought a human life into this world and it is going to be a long suffering life thanks to everyone that came before.

You just have a great way with words. I think I should have complimented you on that and left it at that because the more I type, the more I confuse myself and start the negative self-talk.

[rodox_head]

This is what really got me. I like how you put it. It's exactly the way I felt. Maybe I still feel that way but I don't want to judge myself as doing something wrong when I had a kid.
I didn't realize some of the shit that happened when I was a kid, and it shaped me, and it turned out that shape wasn't nearly as nice as I thought it was. It turns out that I hated myself and I blamed the world, but really, I just don't know/didn't know.

I'm still afraid that I brought a human life into this world and it is going to be a long suffering life thanks to everyone that came before.

You just have a great way with words. I think I should have complimented you on that and left it at that because the more I type, the more I confuse myself and start the negative self-talk.

Once a life has begun, it's on its own journey from there on, the best we can do is support it along the way. Existence is suffering, and as Heather Mason said: "Suffering is a fact of life, you either learn to deal with that or you go under". I may not have been abused as a child or faced any poverty, but I still feel my upbringing has shaped me due to a lack of consistency/simplicity and emotional care going into adolescence. Either way, its life is in its hands now, and only they can really deem their experiences to be "Suffering" or not.

Funny you should say that, I consider myself to be awful with words, and even worse in real life. I've often said I have the charisma of a wax apple. Either way, no worries; I didn't think you were critical of what I said, just unsure which part you were talking about.

[Sky and Trails]

I feel like we'd get along well in person. Not to sound weird, but you talk about yourself in a way that feels familiar to me. Maybe we've already met or something.
So, as an example, you compare yourself to a wax apple. I often times will say to my wife that I feel like I'm just a fucking loser. She always seems surprised because she doesn't see me that way. I've got all this negative self-talk going on in my head all the time. Today, actually, I felt really good, like way better than I've felt in a long time. My first thought was, "Fuck, this probably means I'm going to have a stroke or some weird shit and die tonight."
All that for feeling good!? Anyway, I'm getting way off topic. But my point was that I think we're similar in some way.

I'm in the States, in Oklahoma no less. I don't fit in here and I never have. I learned to love this place only to have that turned into something toxic by some people I wish I never knew. So now I find myself going back to my old ways and not really liking it here. I don't know where you're at, but it would be cool if you were here, too. We could hang out and talk shit together.

I like what you said about life...once it's here it's on it's own journey. It kind of makes having a kid okay, even if you're anti-natalism. And I think I used to be, then I decided somehow I'm special and my kid(s) would somehow be grandfathered into a better world, my world. and I could shelter them from all the bad. I don't know...I'm rambling.

We should all just hang out and unload. (Not a cum reference)

[Jonse]

It was comforting for my father, a child of the 50s, to confide in me that he did not expect or anticipate grandchildren, that was okay with him, and I have done nothing wrong by choosing not to reproduce as we avoid doing so for the same reason; I first probably reached this perspective when I was 15 or 16. There's far too much history of mental illness that I feel it irresponsible to pass my genes on. Someone might contest that and tell me that I am narrow minded but I don't really care.

I know I digress from the topic and I did watch that Solar Sands video when it was uploaded too. I just want to weigh in on the voluntary angle. There's a lot of reasons not to reproduce.

[Sky and Trails]

I completely agree. There are SO many reasons not to reproduce.
I honestly do not know what happened that made my wife and I change our minds. It's like it just happened one day. I think it was our coming to terms with mortality. Granted, we're considered older parents because we waited until our late 30s, and I know from the anti-natalism angle, we basically upped the ante for a shit life for our kids by waiting so long, but like I said, it's like the idea came from somewhere else. It's crazy what getting older does.

I respect the shit out of anti-natalists. I find it to be the very next step for the species...purposeful population reduction. We've hit the peak and now things are trying to reach equilibrium with nature or something.

[Gazebo4]

You don't have to be anti-birth to make your own decision to not reproduce. I think the whole anti-natalist philosophy is quite ridiculous to be frank. But if one wants to subscribe to an anti-Life mindset then there's a freedom of choice in that. There could be many reasons not to reproduce, just as there could be many reasons to reproduce.

Also on your point about suffering, suffering is the gateway to happiness. There is nothing bad about it, it's just a giant misunderstanding and a big red flag that you are missing the mark of existence. If you will not have a child because you don't want it to suffer, then you also take away the possibility for it to learn through life experiences and to the possibility of breaking through the suffering and finding happiness.

Believe it or not but the main reason your body is born into existence is to find happiness through self-realization and as a consequence to become a vessel for love, peace and creativity of God/Consciousness/Life/Source/<whatever name you want to give to your true nature>. And to do that in this 3D world the body-mind learns through experiences and suffering. To be against new consciousness to emerge in this world in the lifeform of a body is a very nihilistic and ultimately self-destructive mindset to me.

[Sky and Trails]

That's a great response.

I have kids because I chose to do so. Once the decision was made, all of the questioning went away.
I don't know what made me make the decision though. I believe it's just part of being human.

[Gazebo4]

I don't know what made me make the decision though. I believe it's just part of being human.

I believe it's part of life itself. I mean, creation is spontaneous. Sometimes things just happen a certain way, almost like it was not your choice to make. I try to see these things as a gift. At certain points in our lives we think we know, but most of the times we really don't know because our mind is pretty short-sighted. And in my opinion there is a great comfort in that!

At the moment I'm like you were before, don't want kids and I'm 34 "already". I can list probably 20 reasons against, but that doesn't mean that this will change one day, it could, or it couldn't

[Gazebo4]

Stumbled upon this.

[SamuraiDrifter]

You don't have to be anti-birth to make your own decision to not reproduce. I think the whole anti-natalist philosophy is quite ridiculous to be frank. But if one wants to subscribe to an anti-Life mindset then there's a freedom of choice in that. There could be many reasons not to reproduce, just as there could be many reasons to reproduce.

Totally agree with this. I think anti-natalism as a general moral principle is baseless, but I also get really frustrated at how much pressure there is on people to have kids. It's not for everyone and it's no one's business to get judgmental or coercive about it. Just let people live their own lives how they want.