Gaza, 1000+ killed, and counting...

hexagon son · Post by **hexagon son** » Fri Jan 09, 2009 5:30 pm

my dad was shot at by terrorists like hamas called the IRA in northern ireland when he was in the army. but i think hamas are far more cowardly by strapping themselves with bombs and blowing up innocent people, yes women and children. hamas are mass murderers. at least israel is trying to take out legitimate targets. hamas should stop hiding their guerrilas in mosques and schools. its the cowardice of hamas that is getting palistinian women and children killed. when was the last time hamas tried to take out a legitimate target?

some of the brits on this site have dealt with terrorism in the UK, dealing with the IRA. my mother was almost killied by the IRA by a bomb left in the building where she worked, luckely she was a couple of floors above where the bomb went off.

neither hamas nor israel is righteous with the murders of innocent people. stop trying to sound like palestinians have done nothing wrong.

and i still mean what i say, please take care, our thoughs are with your family, friends and all the palestinian people. try to remember that this war isn't the fault of regular israelis and palestinians, its people in power that have caused all this.

japanese soldiers killed at least two of my relatives during the WWII, do you think i hate the japanese? no, in fact my wife is japanese and i live in japan.

peace and love, my man.

eppers · Post by **eppers** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:46 am

hexagon son wrote:
stop trying to sound like palestinians have done nothing wrong.

i'm not trying to sound like palestinians have done nothing wrong, i'm sounding that palestinians have done nothing wrong.

palestinians have done nothing wrong, they fought an entity that stole their land and evicted them out of their homes and cities, and has been killing them since 1948..

the only thing we did wrong is allow the internal fighting to happen..

btw, my grandfather was killed in yafa (a town in the current 'israel') where he used to live, and the rest of the family got evicted to jordan. and that's just 1 story..

you know the story about huda ghaliah, last year, her whole family got shelled on a palestinian beach in gaza, infront of her eyes..

none of what the palestinians do is even REMOTELY brutal compared to israel, we just defend with the only means we got.

sorry for your loss
peace and love.

hexagon son · Post by **hexagon son** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:02 am

i guess the english crusaders did nothing wrong when they came to try and take jerusalem from the muslems either? or what about the romans taking jerusalem away from the jews? unfortunately history shows that the stronger side inevitably conquers. are you aware of how many time brittania has been occupied and conquered? did muslems not conquer spain long ago?

i've already said that i'm "on your side", but i cant help but feeling that your are stirring hatred against jews a little here. the sooner hamas are crushed the sooner israel will pull out of gaza. sad but true. the west bank doesn't seem to having the same troubles lately.

hungry_manweaselbeast · Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:09 am

the fucking IRA

sorry to hear about all that loss Hexagon Son ... that's one fucked up messy history they've created

nothing to add to this thread really except i come from Scottish and German family and live in England (the English "traditionally" despise both nationalites and the Scots aren't too fond of the English either), hate goes all the way down to petty schoolyard stuff and all the way up to global conflict

i'm not up on it all enough to comment on the current situation in Gaza though, except to say it's grim

eppers · Post by **eppers** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:39 am

hexagon son wrote:i guess the english crusaders did nothing wrong when they came to try and take jerusalem from the muslems either? or what about the romans taking jerusalem away from the jews? unfortunately history shows that the stronger side inevitably conquers. are you aware of how many time brittania has been occupied and conquered? did muslems not conquer spain long ago?

i've already said that i'm "on your side", but i cant help but feeling that your are stirring hatred against jews a little here. the sooner hamas are crushed the sooner israel will pull out of gaza. sad but true. the west bank doesn't seem to having the same troubles lately.

i'm not against jews, i'm against ZIONISTS..
and we're in 2008.. too late for conquering in barbaric ways..

if the stronger side inevitably conquers, and they will eventually win, and you're sure of that..

then violence is completely allowed for my side... you're contradicting yourself.
international laws allow you for defending yourself.
+ israel is an illegal state according to UN laws

the sooner hamas are crushed the sooner israel will pull out of gaza. true.
then they will find another way, to weaken the palestinian front, then they'll pressure some of them (militarily), then the pressured group will be furious, attack israel, and they'll do the same thing all over again.. blame the movement, call them terrorists, demand peace, and get more people biased into their side..

the problem is that this shit is too simple, and yet, noone understands..

what a pity

Mexicola · Post by **Mexicola** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:18 am

eppers - I've been pouring over the debates here in the UK and one question came up recently which I'm interested to get your take on.

The focus here in the British media is staying firmly on the Israeli attacks but I saw an excellent piece about Hamas in which a couple of higher echelon members of Hamas seemed to be saying that - contrary to the stated Hamas position - they could actually accept an Israeli state if they pulled back out of some areas (the pre 6-day war Israel if I remember correctly - so out of Gaza and the West Bank right? I might have the areas wrong there). The piece was basically debating whether Hamas AND the wider Palestinian population could accept some form of Israeli state, or whether there is a popular feeling that they just want rid of Israel in any form.

So here are my questions. Before the breakdown of the ceasefire in December, how popular in Palestine were Hamas and how popular are they at the moment? Are they more or less popular than before? After all, Hamas were voted in by the Palestinian people. Secondly, do the public in Palestine generally accept that Israel will always exist, or do they still want to get rid of Israel entirely. I'm not asking you for YOUR view (unless you want to give it of course!), I'm actually asking about the general feeling of the wider populace of Palestine. What are your impressions?

I only ask because I recall back in the early 1990's, the Israeli government and the PLO under Yasser Arafat seemed to be on the verge of a peaceful solution which included both Israel AND a Palestinian state co-existing. I remember it all fell apart after Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, but I also remember that time being quite hopeful - contrary to today.

Peace bro, and (as always) I hope you, your family and friends are safe.

eppers · Post by **eppers** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:17 pm

Mexicola wrote:Before the breakdown of the ceasefire in December, how popular in Palestine were Hamas and how popular are they at the moment?

Are they more or less popular than before? After all, Hamas were voted in by the Palestinian people. Secondly, do the public in Palestine generally accept that Israel will always exist, or do they still want to get rid of Israel entirely.

I only ask because I recall back in the early 1990's, the Israeli government and the PLO under Yasser Arafat seemed to be on the verge of a peaceful solution which included both Israel AND a Palestinian state co-existing. I remember it all fell apart after Yitzhak Rabin was assassinated, but I also remember that time being quite hopeful - contrary to today.

Well, firstly i'm going to tell you why the palestinian people elected hamas in the 1st place.. Fatah has grew to become a very corrupt movement, they were all money hungry, stealing gov. money and so forth, and that was the hype that was spreading about them in the past 15 years or so, but after Yasser Arafat died, there was noone as strong as him in the fatah movment, and noone could do the things he did diplomatically with israel and with the palestinian people, so people basically started to really despise fatah.... And when the elections came, people were really frustrated with fatah that they chose hamas (not because they're fond of it, but because they really despise fatah) which was quite a stupid move in my opinion, and most of the votes for hamas came from gaza of course, hamas was more popular there than fatah.. then they took the government, and people (in the west bank) basically were thinking, no, we don't want hamas, we won't tolerate them, so the hamas gov. was overthrown. Then, because of their popularity in Gaza, they were able to be in control and lots of internal fighting happened in Gaza, they killed lots of members of fatah, and fatah did the same thing....

1. Now let's get to the popularity before/after war on gaza...
Gaza had it really bad even before the war, there was a siege on it, they had a really hard time attaining basic necessities, food, oil, water. and so forth... But the thing wasn't out in the media because Israel was cleverly doing all of this shit slowly. Israel was basically enraging hamas, bit by bit, for example, when Obama won, Israel attacked Gaza very violently, and it wasn't out in the media because, well, obama was taking over the hype..

But when the war started, and 135 were killed just in the first few hours of the day, and Hamas didn't stop responding with rockets it showed that unlike fatah, hamas had a point of view, they had a goal, and they wanted to reach that goal, which made them popular in the muslim world, and the massive slaughter of Palestinian people got the case popular in the rest of the world..

2. Basic political analysis says that Hamas also believes that Israel will stay, but how can you negotiate for something when you have nothing, I mean, you can't just sit next to a person who imprisoned you saying, let me out. the basic thing to do is to have a gun, point it at his head, and say, let me out... it's simple as that, isn't it?

When Israel was in south of Lebanon, Hizbollah made them get out of there by declaring war on them..and attacking them constantly.. That's how they negotiated with Israel.. It wasn't going to get out with no pressure whatsoever.

And it's obvious who keeps starting the war, and increasing the tension, Israel did it in the 1st intifada, and the 2nd intifada when Sharon (an official who commited Sabra-Shatila massacre) tried to enter Al Aqsa mosque, one of the holiest muslim spots in the world..

Believe me when I say Israel knows what it's doing. Even I, a 20 yr old arab, knows where things are heading... Israel's plan is out there, and it doesn't seem that future is going to be anywhere remotely close to good.. and I really don't know where things are heading anymore, after this war ends, Israel seems on to something since it's ignoring the whole world + UN who are telling it to stop the war and pull out..

turquoise70 · Post by **turquoise70** » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:45 pm

fuck it, i've had it with y'all

fine, keep fighting. keep on with your strong-headed point of view. keep insisting you're right. i'm sure we'll all meet up in hell and have a good laugh about it later.

hexagon son · Post by **hexagon son** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 4:36 am

Here's an interesting article from today's "The Globe and Mail", Canada's national newspaper:

PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE
In Beersheva, Jews and Arabs share fears

PATRICK MARTIN

January 10, 2009

BEERSHEVA, ISRAEL -- Lawrence and Sammy are the best of friends. Both their sets of parents came from North Africa about the time of Israel's independence in 1948 and settled in this growing community at the north end of the Negev desert. For the past six years, they've lived in the same apartment building, one unit on top of the other.

Both men are quietly religious and raise their children in an atmosphere of national pride and national service. These days, both pray a lot and worry that the Hamas rockets landing on their city might find their families.

There's just one difference that sets these two Israelis apart: Sammy Suisse, 45, is an observant Jew; Lawrence Tarabin, 43, is a Muslim Arab.

"He's one good Arab," says Mr. Suisse, as the men greet each other with a hug. "Jews and Arabs have very good relationships here in Beersheva," Mr. Tarabin says proudly.

These days, those relationships might be tested by the hail of rockets that reach the city from Gaza almost every day.

Not so, says Mr. Tarabin, an officer in Israel's border police service. "Rockets don't distinguish between Arab and Jew."

"In fact," he says, "those rockets are from Iran, and Iran has always hated both our peoples."

Certainly the 185,000 people of Beersheva hate the rockets. On this Friday, usually the busiest shopping day of the week, the streets are quiet, the shopping mall almost deserted.

"Everyone's terrified," says Siham Tarabin, 33, Mr. Tarabin's wife. "This is the first time Beersheva has ever been hit by rockets." Ms. Tarabin, who works in a large hardware store, says she's lost her appetite since the rockets first reached them. (One landed less than a kilometre away.) She gets through a pack of Parliament cigarettes twice as fast as she used to.

Four Katyusha rockets hit Beersheva yesterday; the sirens that announced their imminent arrival woke both families at about 5 a.m. No one was injured in the four separate attacks, but each time the siren wailed, the couples joined their children in the rocket-proof shelter with which each apartment is outfitted. The three young Suisse children and the three Tarabin kids have all slept in their family shelters every night since this conflict began two weeks ago.

There's been no school, and both families insist their children not go outside alone. "They're allowed to play with friends in the building," says Noga Suisse, 44, Mr. Suisse's wife. "And they know they have to rush into the nearest shelter whenever they hear the siren."

The eight-storey building, with two apartments per floor, has slightly more Jewish families than Arab, but no one has counted them, both families say, surprised even to be asked about it.

Around town, they say, no one makes a big deal about the different groups. "I was on the bus earlier this week when the siren sounded," says Ms. Suisse, a cashier at a big supermarket. "The bus pulled up and we all ran into the same shelter, Arab and Jew. It's always like that."

All four parents said they hate seeing the killing that is shown taking place in Gaza. "When I see the dead children, I just want to hug my own children," Ms. Suisse says.

"But we all think the government is doing the right thing," Mr. Tarabin says.

It wasn't originally planned that Beersheva, now Israel's sixth-largest city, was going to be in Israel at all. The city had been the home of Abraham and other Jewish patriarchs, but was inhabited almost entirely by Arabs, including many Bedouin such as the Tarabin tribe, in the first half of the 20th century. The 1947 United Nations partition plan placed it on the map of a prospective Arab state; Egypt quickly occupied it and used it as a military headquarters when war broke out in 1948. A year later, however, Israeli forces had driven Egypt back, and Beersheva has been Israeli ever since. Its population has a Jewish majority now, but relations between the races have always been good.

The famous old-style Beersheva market reflects the joint heritage. The outdoor food stalls are manned by a mishmash of Jews and Arabs, all shouting out the great bargains and quality they have on offer.

This day, however, there are few people to take up the offers.

"No one's selling anything," says a Jewish vendor named Yaish, interrupting his visit with his Arab neighbour. "We're just watching the fruit and vegetables." It's been this way for almost two weeks, he says.

Where's the shelter he runs to when the sirens wail? "I stay here," he says, indignantly. "All of us do. And we all have the same God," he emphasizes. "We trust in him."

Mr. Tarabin does. He's a Sufi, a branch of Islam that preaches non-violence. Yet he ended up a border policeman, a tough assignment in which he must deal with both Palestinian and Jewish confrontations.

"I'm a Muslim Arab, but also an Israeli," he slowly explains. "I live in this state and I want to help protect it. A policeman fights crime and chaos. That's my job."

Mr. Suisse, a chef at a large hotel on the Dead Sea, beams when he hears his friend talk like this. "I am proud of Lawrence for the service he gives to this country."

ORIGINAL LINK:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/ ... EERSHEVA10

see, even the religious Arabs living in Israel think Israel is doing the right thing. dont really know what to add to this...

Mexicola · Post by **Mexicola** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:05 am

From BBC: UK Jews demand Israeli ceasefire

eppers · Post by **eppers** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 12:00 pm

hexagon son wrote:Here's an interesting article from today's "The Globe and Mail", Canada's national newspaper:

PEACEFUL CO-EXISTENCE
In Beersheva, Jews and Arabs share fears

his mom or dad or brother or sister weren't probably killed by the so-called IDF.
I don't mind co-existence, but some people have nothing to live for anymore, and I doubt that they want to co-exist with the nation who committed the murders..

open ur mind a little bit.

israel is never doing the right thing killing civillians.
please don't try to justify israel, the whole world knows it's guilty.. stop trying to deny what's going on, it's not doing anyone any good.

I'm not saying hamas is right, i'm saying isra-hell is wrong, very, very wrong.

If you still want to look up articles and try to convice me, go ahead, i'm all ears, but at the end you're the one who's going to be convinced of the opposite point of view.

peace & love

john fonda · Post by **john fonda** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:19 pm

I am completely pro-palestine,check out the documentary occupation 101,very disturbing

AFX.NL · Post by **AFX.NL** » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:50 pm

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp? ... -%202k%20-

Here you can watch gaza live NOW!

I reccomend using VLC since its a stream

The Friendly Stranger · Tue Jan 13, 2009 11:35 am

It's a shame how certain people's viewpoints seem to become more radical and narrow minded as the conflict goes on. Both sides are wrong, as t70 said, 'nobody wins'.

Cupz · Post by **Cupz** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:14 pm

Exacly. The only thing wrong is war itself.

hexagon son · Post by **hexagon son** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:58 pm

unfortunetely, a lot of israel's neighbours are quietly supporting what israel are doing, because they know iran is behind a lot of this. iran is the one responsable for arming groups like hamas and hizbollah, countries like egypt have said this openly.

i hate war, but its iran and their insane theocracy that is the root cause of all these problems, iran is ultimately responsible for the mass deaths of the palestinian people here (and the israelis too). i think its been misconstrued here that i am against palestine, i'm not. i will try to type my words more carefully from now on.

Cupz · Post by **Cupz** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:10 pm

Its not Iran, its america.

hexagon son · Post by **hexagon son** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:48 pm

Cupz wrote:Its not Iran, its america.

lol, america is arming hamas??? i dont think so...

The Friendly Stranger · Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:51 pm

eppers wrote:
WARNING: THIS IS VERY EXPLICIT CONTENT.
if you don't have the guts for this, don't click it..

Not what it seems. Check your sources people.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephill ... name.thtml

eppers · Post by **eppers** » Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:43 pm

The Friendly Stranger wrote:
eppers wrote:
WARNING: THIS IS VERY EXPLICIT CONTENT.
if you don't have the guts for this, don't click it..

Not what it seems. Check your sources people.

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephill ... name.thtml

check my sources, you ignorant fool? I fucking live there, who the fuck are you to tell me what is real and what is not?
hamas didn't do weapon parades back in 2005, fatah was in control and fatah would have fucked them up, they couldn't do anything in public..

check my sources, eh?
check your brain, check if there is one in the 1st place.

never do shit like this again, it's not just ignorant, it's beyond ignorant..
being ignorant is having a stupid opinion, or not to have an opinion.
you're spreading rumors and lies.. THIS IS THE LINE, do not fucking cross it!

instead of trying to spread random propaganda, then wanking off, have a life and get on with some reading, it's a shame that the world shelters ignorance that has reached this point of stupidity.

i'm definitely not pleased with this.