____twoism

Ok, everybody cupz-hug right now.

Sex on a stick.

I think drillkicker may be caught in the headstate that a lot of people seem to be stuck in when overwhelmed and saddened by the world to such an extent that they want to shut it out. I know he cares, we all know he cares. To a lot of people, accepting that they care for everyone would be to accept a burden they don't ever want to endure.

Where do you draw the empathy line?
Do you cry and lock yourself away at every death and all of the pain you hear of, do you refuse to care about any of it? It isn't natural for humans to be exposed to the problems of anyone outside of their personal tribe so it is natural either to view the wider world as an extension of your tribe or to view them as not of importance in comparison to your own.

Excellent post Valatonin. Peace out to Drillkicker too. I was having a tough weekend and had grumpy head on. Sorry if it got a bit personal

Valotonin wrote:I think drillkicker may be caught in the headstate that a lot of people seem to be stuck in when overwhelmed and saddened by the world to such an extent that they want to shut it out. I know he cares, we all know he cares. To a lot of people, accepting that they care for everyone would be to accept a burden they don't ever want to endure.

Where do you draw the empathy line?
Do you cry and lock yourself away at every death and all of the pain you hear of, do you refuse to care about any of it? It isn't natural for humans to be exposed to the problems of anyone outside of their personal tribe so it is natural either to view the wider world as an extension of your tribe or to view them as not of importance in comparison to your own.

Wrong. I can't possibly care about something that may as well not exist. The media likes to constantly remind me of the terrible suffering that other people are going through, always somewhere far away that I can't see for myself, but I have no reason to believe it exists. I used to try to care about it, but I've stopped fooling myself lately. I have no reason to feel empathy for people I've never met. There is no logical benefit to doing that. I think all of the gore and misery that are spread on the internet did a large part in helping me reach that conclusion. Feigning that much empathy is a lot of work, and it just isn't worth it.

drill...if you are trying to say war is good for the economy you are as weak minded as anyone who suggests that. that is the philanthropists view of quick money. use your fucking brain and come up with a solution to the problem and think of a solution for the long term and not the current state of your pocketbook.

yes the population could thin out though. we could do gen or two of sterilization. we do it for animals why can't we do it for humans.
its INFINITELY more human than war for fucks sake. shit man.

Take a little less, give a little more. Help eachother out, out eachothers help. Make a little love, do a little dance.

Drillkicker needs to get layed

re-phaelam-ed wrote:drill...if you are trying to say war is good for the economy you are as weak minded as anyone who suggests that.

Please tell me why you think that I was suggesting this.

drillkicker wrote: Feigning that much empathy is a lot of work, and it just isn't worth it.

Calling me wrong and proving me right xx

No hard feelings and no, you are not advocating war or suggested that you do so don't worry about that. Your statement tells me that you do feel empathy for all but are forced to rationalise it and lock it all away to such an extent it only exists in your subconscious mind. There is no shame in it if you are someone that needs to recover and heal from what the world has done to them. I feel that empathy should only be embraced as and when and how one can embrace it and not if it is detrimental to their own health.

I understand what you mean about the news and media trying to play on your emotions deliberately, though. They understand that people feel empathy and try to damage them and also try to give them a sense of
'There is always worse shit than what you are going through so never complain and be thankful for this collapsing society that allegedly protects you from it'
Scaring you in to taking comfort in a society that uses you.

You may have a point there, Valotonin. I suppose the period of my life when I stopped caring about the rest of the world was when I was horribly depressed and nobody cared to do anything to help me, and I realized that happiness is something that we all have to create for ourselves rather than share with others. It also helped me realize that whatever emotions I had felt for others in the past were all forced and unnatural. Anyway, I'm glad to be free of it, because it's helped me think much more logically about certain topics.

And about that second paragraph you added, I don't think that's the intention. Nobody's in control of the society and the media don't do those things to make us more complacent, it's just what gets them more money because people watch more advertisements if it means they get to hear about people who are more miserable than them, even though societies in worse situations tend to be happier than First World civilizations. Nobody's doing anything wrong, it's just that our society happens to be a perfect environment for fucked up emotional disorders and unhealthy cycles to develop and there isn't much anyone can do about it.

I am a bit confused about your conclusions. I do agree that there is a certain amount of responsibility on ourselves to 'create' our own happiness. I also think you are brave to admit that some of your emotions might not have been entirely honest, I think there is a lot of insincerity out there and most people are just too afraid to admit that they don't really care, when push comes to shove. However, empathy isn't some sort of transaction, altruism is not based in the expectation of return. You say you did not feel anyone helped you when you were struggling with depression, but if you had sought help during that time there would undoubtedly of been people there to help. You might say that is a way in which you are 'creating' happiness for yourself, by forging your own path or whatever. But, it also demonstrates that there are selfless people out there, operating with complete disinterest. They are rare, but they do exist.

Well what I was trying to say is that happiness isn't something that can be given to a person. It's something that people need to establish for themselves in order to have it last. Any happiness that comes from other people disappears as soon as those people are no longer around.

Does it disappear though? Or is that your perception of things? Not arguing, just genuinely interested.

Yes, it does. I know that from experience.

Isn't that just applying value judgements to different types of happiness though? Certainly it may be healthier to derive happiness for yourself, and that happiness would be more secure and long lasting. But a person who gets all their happiness through another person could be very satisfied with that happiness, if that's their world. It being something you experience in your own mind, to them it may be every bit as real and fulfilling as any other self propelled happiness you want to compare it to. In fact in that regard it's nonsensical to compare the two situations - when it comes to subjective emotions, who are we to - from outside - make comparisons or judgements of validity?

Ditto with caring about people you've never met. You might think it odd that people can experience genuine grief at the plight of strangers, but isn't that also viewing their emotional state through the cold lens of your own rationale? Is grief only valid when it's about someone you know? Says who!

As for the comments about how people you haven't met and probably never will not existing, one might as well become a solipsist, (in which case as a figment of your imagination I will do you the service of not engaging you in philosophical debate ;p )

I dunno, I don't mean to be personal but it just looks like you have a certain lack of empathy or at least perhaps a little difficulty imagining how other people perceive the world in different ways.

MrMessiah wrote:Isn't that just applying value judgements to different types of happiness though? Certainly it may be healthier to derive happiness for yourself, and that happiness would be more secure and long lasting. But a person who gets all their happiness through another person could be very satisfied with that happiness, if that's their world. It being something you experience in your own mind, to them it may be every bit as real and fulfilling as any other self propelled happiness you want to compare it to. In fact in that regard it's nonsensical to compare the two situations - when it comes to subjective emotions, who are we to - from outside - make comparisons or judgements of validity?

But if a person's happiness is dependent on another person, then sure it's real but it's also unstable and will leave that person in an even worse state than before if the other person goes away permanently. That kind of happiness isn't worth it. You're better off being alone and miserable than deriving an ephemeral happiness from an impermanent source.

MrMessiah wrote:Ditto with caring about people you've never met. You might think it odd that people can experience genuine grief at the plight of strangers, but isn't that also viewing their emotional state through the cold lens of your own rationale? Is grief only valid when it's about someone you know? Says who!

I never said that it isn't valid, but it's a waste of energy. There's no reason to feel grief for strangers, so it's foolish to do so when the alternative is so much healthier for yourself.

MrMessiah wrote:As for the comments about how people you haven't met and probably never will not existing, one might as well become a solipsist, (in which case as a figment of your imagination I will do you the service of not engaging you in philosophical debate ;p )

Solipsism makes no sense to me because of how complicated and consistent the universe is. My mind could never make up something vastly more intricate than itself, and the fact that I will never be able to fully understand the fundamental rules of the universe is a good sign that it doesn't come from myself. In addition, a universe invented by my imagination would probably be very similar to those that appear in my dreams—that is, inconsistent and chaotic, only coarsely resembling a real existence. But that isn't the case ; the universe is completely consistent and operates on very clear rules that are defined in detail by the many branches of science and mathematics. That certainly isn't something that an inconsistent and individual mind such as my own would create, especially when it could get away with being much less detailed than it is and still succeed in fooling itself.

MrMessiah wrote:I dunno, I don't mean to be personal but it just looks like you have a certain lack of empathy or at least perhaps a little difficulty imagining how other people perceive the world in different ways.

I probably do have a lack of empathy, but I see that as a good thing rather than something that I should be ashamed of. I never do anything intentionally to harm another person and I'm generally liked by those who meet me, so I don't think I'm missing anything important. I'm aware of when a person is hurt and do what I can to avoid that, I just don't feel their pain on an emotional level.

drillkicker wrote: I probably do have a lack of empathy, but I see that as a good thing rather than something that I should be ashamed of. I never do anything intentionally to harm another person and I'm generally liked by those who meet me, so I don't think I'm missing anything important. I'm aware of when a person is hurt and do what I can to avoid that, I just don't feel their pain on an emotional level.

But do you ever go out of your way to ensure someone's happiness? Being neutral is really a positive thing if you are doing so to allow yourself the emotional space you need in order to heal but I feel that once you have healed it is your duty as a human to use your powers, the powers of a healthy human being, to create positiveity in the lives of others.

It isn't as straightforward or over the top as what you see on the internet. Bullshit emotionally provocative videos of people helping homeless people or using force to defend someone etc etc in a really staged, self indulgent way just so they can film themselves being 'nice' isn't what I mean. It is just understanding the feelings of those around you and doing what you can, in small gestures and reassuring communication to help them to develop self confidence, self confidence in the right way, the kind of self confidence that allows them to help others. One lit candle in a room of wicks and all you have to do is lean over. Don't just view socialising as what most people assume it is, discreetly be that persons therapist. Ask them about their life and suggest ways and things they can do to help themselves turn it in to a more positive life. Let them know that your friendship is nonjudgmental and that they can tell you as much or as little as they need to. If you can be the person to create the spark of comfort and self-assurance in that persons life, they will go on with the light you have given them to ignite many others.

I am really high on weak opiates mixed with alcohol
(not a good idea unless you really really know what you are doing)
so I hope I am not sounding condescending or bothersome to you.

I know you care, I know you do.

Not everyone in the world is simultaneously mindful in the correct sense, most are caught in delusions that really just involve self interest at the core. If everyone was aware of what was good for the world, we wouldn't need to be killing each other. The human race has a long way to go.

Valotonin wrote:But do you ever go out of your way to ensure someone's happiness?

Only if I'm socially obligated to or have nothing better to do (which is most of the time).

Valotonin wrote:Being neutral is really a positive thing if you are doing so to allow yourself the emotional space you need in order to heal but I feel that once you have healed it is your duty as a human to use your powers, the powers of a healthy human being, to create positiveity in the lives of others.

Please explain your reasoning for this, because it makes no sense to me. As a human, it is my duty to do whatever I need to do to be happy and nothing more. That's the natural way of doing things. Some people need others to be happy in order to be happy themselves, but I am not one of those people, so I don't see why I should act as if I am.

Valotonin wrote:It isn't as straightforward or over the top as what you see on the internet. Bullshit emotionally provocative videos of people helping homeless people or using force to defend someone etc etc in a really staged, self indulgent way just so they can film themselves being 'nice' isn't what I mean. It is just understanding the feelings of those around you and doing what you can, in small gestures and reassuring communication to help them to develop self confidence, self confidence in the right way, the kind of self confidence that allows them to help others. One lit candle in a room of wicks and all you have to do is lean over. Don't just view socialising as what most people assume it is, discreetly be that persons therapist. Ask them about their life and suggest ways and things they can do to help themselves turn it in to a more positive life. Let them know that your friendship is nonjudgmental and that they can tell you as much or as little as they need to. If you can be the person to create the spark of comfort and self-assurance in that persons life, they will go on with the light you have given them to ignite many others.

OK, that makes you feel good, but it doesn't do anything for me. I don't see how any of that is relevant to myself, so it may as well not happen and I wouldn't know the difference. Again, I'm not the type of person who gets joy from thinking about how important I am to other people.

Valotonin wrote:I am really high on weak opiates mixed with alcohol
(not a good idea unless you really really know what you are doing)
so I hope I am not sounding condescending or bothersome to you.

I know you care, I know you do.

I hope those opiates were prescribed for medical reasons. I'd say mixing them with alcohol is a bad idea regardless of your level of experience or knowledge.

Spenner wrote:Not everyone in the world is simultaneously mindful in the correct sense, most are caught in delusions that really just involve self interest at the core. If everyone was aware of what was good for the world, we wouldn't need to be killing each other. The human race has a long way to go.

Explain how murder is bad for the world, please. I'd like to know what your idea of a good world is like.

drillkicker wrote: Explain how murder is bad for the world, please. I'd like to know what your idea of a good world is like.

Cmon man it's pretty obvious. Killing a person that needn't have been killed because they could have cooperated with the ideal scenario of society is a waste of life. Any person can understand that we need to cooperate in order to survive. I'm not saying every person is capable of it now, but eventually, it will be crucial. Killing needn't be, how can you possiby reason reason for it?